Just shot 3 rolls with my brand new TL-120. The film would not
advance after the last exposure to the point that the backing paper
was fully rolled on the receiving spool. Any advice how to remedy or
did I get a lemon?

Thanks,

APP

>
> Just shot 3 rolls with my brand new TL-120. The film would not
> advance after the last exposure to the point that the backing paper
> was fully rolled on the receiving spool. Any advice how to remedy

or

> did I get a lemon?
>
> Thanks,
>
> APP
>

I had the same problem on my early version of TL-120.
I gave up after ruined three rolls.
When I first talked with 3dworld they said it was a known problem of
early versions of the camera (fragile parts). But then they changed
support guy and this one said I had used to much force. I told him
that my old stereocameras could stand my handling and so would this
one.
Result: they replaced it.

Martin
Sweden

rimkopf wrote:

> Just shot 3 rolls with my brand new TL-120.
> The film would not advance after the last
> exposure to the point that the backing paper
> was fully rolled on the receiving spool.

Martin responded:

> I had the same problem on my early version of TL-120.
> I gave up after ruined three rolls.
> When I first talked with 3dworld they said it was a
> known problem of early versions of the camera...

I can't picture what could be failing inside the camera to
cause this sort of problem. Can you better describe the
failed piece or pieces?

Did the advance lever refuse to move any more?

Did the lever move but refuse to advance the film?
________________________________________
John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska
http://stereo.thurstons.us

I emailed 3D World at the same time as I posted this question, so we will see what their
response is. It would certainly be appropriate for them to replace the camera with one
that does not have this problem. In greater detail:

The paper marking the film's advance from left reel to right reel appears to be moving as I
work my way through to number '11', but after that, while I was watching in the little
viewer window in the back, as many times as I advanced the film lever, the paper never
disappeared. I counted fifty lever pulls on the second roll. Like John Thurston, I cannot
understand the mechanical problem that is occuring, because one would think that if the
camera advances the film up to the '11' marker it should keep going, but when I had to
step into the dark room to open the camera back, the end of the actual film hadn't
advanced past the exposure plane. I then had to roll it on the right spool manually,
assuming the final exposures were ruined (it is not a proper darkroom). It could have
been the film itself, but it happened with three rolls. I will send the film for processing,
but my guess is that at least some of the exposures were ruined.

--- In MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com, John Thurston wrote:
>
> rimkopf wrote:
> > Just shot 3 rolls with my brand new TL-120.
> > The film would not advance after the last
> > exposure to the point that the backing paper
> > was fully rolled on the receiving spool.
>
> Martin responded:
> > I had the same problem on my early version of TL-120.
> > I gave up after ruined three rolls.
> > When I first talked with 3dworld they said it was a
> > known problem of early versions of the camera...
>
> I can't picture what could be failing inside the camera to
> cause this sort of problem. Can you better describe the
> failed piece or pieces?
>
> Did the advance lever refuse to move any more?
>
> Did the lever move but refuse to advance the film?
> ________________________________________
> John Thurston
> Juneau, Alaska
> http://stereo.thurstons.us
>

---

Free Alerts�: Be smart - let your information find you�! be smart - let your information

It appears your roll of film has disengaged from the takeup spindle.
Is the lower spindle out when this occurs?

When you load the film onto the advance spool, keep pressure on the
film side until you are positive it is rolling tightly around the
takeup spool. If you don't, it can either become unbalanced on the
takeup side (causing it to disengage), or you will finish the roll and
find the film is rolled up on the outer edge of the spool.

Check the bottom spindle as it advances to make sure it has not popped
out.

BTW, did you buy it direct or from a distributor?

Sam

--- In MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com, "aldopascarella"
wrote:

>
> I emailed 3D World at the same time as I posted this question, so we

will see what their

> response is. It would certainly be appropriate for them to replace

the camera with one

> that does not have this problem. In greater detail:
>
> The paper marking the film's advance from left reel to right reel

appears to be moving as I

> work my way through to number '11', but after that, while I was

watching in the little

> viewer window in the back, as many times as I advanced the film

lever, the paper never

> disappeared. I counted fifty lever pulls on the second roll. Like

John Thurston, I cannot

> understand the mechanical problem that is occuring, because one

would think that if the

> camera advances the film up to the '11' marker it should keep going,

but when I had to

> step into the dark room to open the camera back, the end of the

actual film hadn't

> advanced past the exposure plane. I then had to roll it on the

right spool manually,

> assuming the final exposures were ruined (it is not a proper

darkroom). It could have

> been the film itself, but it happened with three rolls. I will send

the film for processing,

> but my guess is that at least some of the exposures were ruined.
>
>
>
> --- In MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com, John Thurston wrote:
> >
> > rimkopf wrote:
> > > Just shot 3 rolls with my brand new TL-120.
> > > The film would not advance after the last
> > > exposure to the point that the backing paper
> > > was fully rolled on the receiving spool.
> >
> > Martin responded:
> > > I had the same problem on my early version of TL-120.
> > > I gave up after ruined three rolls.
> > > When I first talked with 3dworld they said it was a
> > > known problem of early versions of the camera...
> >
> > I can't picture what could be failing inside the camera to
> > cause this sort of problem. Can you better describe the
> > failed piece or pieces?
> >
> > Did the advance lever refuse to move any more?
> >
> > Did the lever move but refuse to advance the film?
> > ________________________________________
> > John Thurston
> > Juneau, Alaska
> > http://stereo.thurstons.us
> >
>

I will try this -- thanks.

3D World / China emailed asking for more details, as well.

I bought it directly from the company -- why do you ask?

APP

--- In MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com, "Sam Smith" wrote:
>
> It appears your roll of film has disengaged from the takeup spindle.
> Is the lower spindle out when this occurs?
>
> When you load the film onto the advance spool, keep pressure on the
> film side until you are positive it is rolling tightly around the
> takeup spool. If you don't, it can either become unbalanced on the
> takeup side (causing it to disengage), or you will finish the roll and
> find the film is rolled up on the outer edge of the spool.
>
> Check the bottom spindle as it advances to make sure it has not popped
> out.
>
> BTW, did you buy it direct or from a distributor?
>
> Sam

--- In MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com, John Thurston
wrote:

>
> rimkopf wrote:
> > Just shot 3 rolls with my brand new TL-120.
> > The film would not advance after the last
> > exposure to the point that the backing paper
> > was fully rolled on the receiving spool.
>
> Martin responded:
> > I had the same problem on my early version of TL-120.
> > I gave up after ruined three rolls.
> > When I first talked with 3dworld they said it was a
> > known problem of early versions of the camera...
>
> I can't picture what could be failing inside the camera to
> cause this sort of problem. Can you better describe the
> failed piece or pieces?
>
> Did the advance lever refuse to move any more?
>
> Did the lever move but refuse to advance the film?
> ________________________________________
> John Thurston
> Juneau, Alaska
> http://stereo.thurstons.us
>

The advance lever moved but not the film, it felt like two cogwheels
had moved apart or wasn't in line. I could feel through the advance
lever how something was scraping against another part inside camera.
And then suddenly they (or whatever it was) hooked together again and
worked half a roll again. The camera could been working through a
whole film, only to refuse to advance after a couple of shots with
the next roll of film.
Sometimes the take up spool didn't locked so I could see the film
move forward and backwards, but these times atleast the advance lever
worked -a kind of catch 22 situation.

Martin
Sweden

In my case, there was no scraping -- the lever continues to move as
though you are advancing the film, but the film and backing paper
itself does not move. It also occured to me to bend the little metal
piece that holds the film down on the receiving reel back a bit as it
may be too tight once most of the film is rolled on the receiving side.

--- In MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com, "rimkopf" wrote:

> > Did the advance lever refuse to move any more?
> >
> > Did the lever move but refuse to advance the film?
> > ________________________________________
> > John Thurston
> > Juneau, Alaska
> > http://stereo.thurstons.us
> >
>
> The advance lever moved but not the film, it felt like two cogwheels
> had moved apart or wasn't in line. I could feel through the advance
> lever how something was scraping against another part inside camera.
> And then suddenly they (or whatever it was) hooked together again and
> worked half a roll again. The camera could been working through a
> whole film, only to refuse to advance after a couple of shots with
> the next roll of film.
> Sometimes the take up spool didn't locked so I could see the film
> move forward and backwards, but these times atleast the advance lever
> worked -a kind of catch 22 situation.
>
> Martin
> Sweden
>

aldopascarella writes"

> In my case, there was no scraping -- the lever continues to move as
> though you are advancing the film, but the film and backing paper
> itself does not move.

Could this be a case of the lever just not fully retracting before the
next stroke?

In other words are you making complete full strokes with the lever
hitting the stop on both the forward and reverse stroke? You might even
need to physically push it back to the reverse stop position rather than
relying on the spring load to do it.

Hope that helps,

David W. Kesner

aldopascarella wrote:

> Just shot 3 rolls with my brand new TL-120. The
> film would not advance after the last exposure
> to the point that the backing paper
> was fully rolled on the receiving spool. Any
> advice how to remedy or did I get a lemon?

I don't think so. I think what has happened is
that the lower "retention" pin on the take-up spool
slipped down just a bit. This let the take-up spool
fall enough to disengage from the keyed advance lever.

I had one roll do this to me. I grabbed my change-
bag and quickly remedied the problem. All the images
on that roll came out fine. (I bought my change-bag
for $10 when I got my Sputnik. It was the smallest
thing B&H sold. I've used it twice. Once with my
TL120 and once for a stuck roll in a Canonet.)

After that one incident, I cut a small U-shaped
section of styrene. After installing the take-up
spool and threading the new film into it, I drop
this little piece of styrene under the take-up
spool and close the back. Now, the spool can't
come dis-engaged from the advance lever even if I
fully pull the retention pin on the bottom. When
the film is done, I open the back, tip the camera
over on its back and the little shim falls out and
I can remove the exposed film as normal. Of course
if I _do_ pull the pin the spool will shift a
little and I don't expect the film-path to continue
to be smooth and straight, but at least I'll be
able to advance the film to the end.

I've been meaning to post pictures of this little
piece but haven't yet done so.
________________________________________
John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska
http://stereo.thurstons.us

>> rimkopf wrote:
>> > Just shot 3 rolls with my brand new TL-120.
>> > The film would not advance after the last
>> > exposure to the point that the backing paper
>> > was fully rolled on the receiving spool.

later, rimkopf added:

> The advance lever moved but not the film, it felt
> like two cogwheels had moved apart or wasn't in
> line. I could feel through the advance lever how
> something was scraping against another part inside
> camera. And then suddenly they (or whatever it was)
> hooked together again and worked half a roll again.

It could be that the spool had come disengaged from
the keyed shaft which turns it. What you felt may
have been the shaft rotating against the top of the
take-up spool.

I've put together some photos of behavior I saw in
my TL120 and the steps I took to correct that behavior.
http://stereo.thurstons.us/spoolshim.htm

If you want to discuss the concepts outlined on
that page, feel free to do it here (on-list).
If you notice problems in the links or HTML please
let me know privately (off-list).
________________________________________
John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska
http://stereo.thurstons.us

John,

Your animations are awsome! Great job putting this together, and
excellent suggestion.

I just received a camera that reportedly a similar issue. After 200
advances and 5 rolls, I cannot duplicate the problem. Technique may
resolve it, but there was one other possibility I couldn't confirm.
The user apparently tried using Tmax film which is apparently thicker.
I only use Fuji and Techpan, which is perhaps why I can't replicate this.

Sam

>
> I've put together some photos of behavior I saw in
> my TL120 and the steps I took to correct that behavior.
> http://stereo.thurstons.us/spoolshim.htm
>
> If you want to discuss the concepts outlined on
> that page, feel free to do it here (on-list).
> If you notice problems in the links or HTML please
> let me know privately (off-list).
> ________________________________________
> John Thurston
> Juneau, Alaska
> http://stereo.thurstons.us
>

---

Buy what you want when you want it on Sympatico / MSN Shopping

Sounds like a good solution -- hope it will work.

Where do you get the styrene? What thickness styrene sheet? How did
you shape it correctly?

Thanks!

aldopascarella wrote:

> Where do you get the styrene?

I used a section of sheet styrene from Plastruct.
http://www.plastruct.com/
I had it left over from making a lens hood for
my Rolleidoscop.

Really, you can probably find a suitable piece of
plastic from some packaging laying around. A little
piece of aluminum, steel or basswood would work well, too.

> What thickness styrene sheet?

I used 1/16" (1.6mm) styrene but your camera may be
slightly different.

The maximum thickness you want is the height of the
thick portion of your camera's retention pin. This can be
tough to measure. In practice I tried different pieces
of styrene until I found one that fit well. It turned
out to be 1/16" thick. If that had been too thin, I might
have used a thicker piece or just glued some cardboard or
paper to it to thicken it up. There really isn't any magic here.

> How did you shape it correctly?

I made a pattern out of paper and used that to size the
plastic. I made several paper and cardboard shapes until
I settled on the C-shape.

Shaping styrene requires nothing complicated. I used a
hand drill, reamer, file, razor saw, and sand paper. I
could have gotten by with nothing but some sand paper and
an Xacto knife. If pressed, the folding knife in my pocket
would have been sufficient. This isn't rocket surgery :)

If you make one out of aluminum or basswood, your tools
will be different. Just start with a paper pattern and
stop working when your product matches the pattern.

John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska