Subject: Red vs. Clear window on TL-120
Date: 2008-07-22 19:55:16
From: Dr. Kevin Pernicano

I think when I get home, I will replace the red window on the back of one of my tl-120's with a clear circular filter. I will let anyone know if I have any light leaks, but given our discussion, I hypothesise not, given the evidence to date.

I also do not recall ever seeing any red fogging on any of the slide images I have done with the TL120, even though I left the metal slide open for several hours in the hot south carolina sun while hiking one afternoon.

I'd only put on a clear filter to keep out the dust.

I will keep everyone posted!

Dr. Kevin Pernicano
Louisville, KY, USA (Home of the Kentucky Derby)

--- On Wed, 7/16/08, MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> From: MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MF3D-group] Digest Number 543
> To: MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 1:13 PM
> Medium Format Stereo Photography
>
>
>
>
>
> Medium Format Stereo Photography
>
>
> Messages In This Digest (4
> Messages)
>
>
>
>
> 1a.
>
> Re: red window [was: getting this for the TL120]
> From:
> Brian Reynolds
>
>
> 2a.
>
> Re: getting this for the TL120
> From:
> dlopp2000
> 2b.
>
> Re: getting this for the TL120
> From:
> John Thurston
> 2c.
>
> Re: getting this for the TL120
> From:
> dlopp2000
>
>
>
> View All Topics | Create New Topic
>
>
> Messages
>
>
>
> 1a.
>
>
>
> Re: red window [was: getting this for the TL120]
>
>
> Posted by: "Brian Reynolds"
> mf3d@reynolds.users.panix.com
>
>
> Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:43 pm (PDT)
>
>
> Chuck Holzner wrote:
>
> > > dlopp2000 wrote:
>
> > > > According to Mr Calderbank, the TL-120 does
> contain a red
>
> > > > window.
>
> > > >
>
> > > > I am still waiting to read of a valid reason
> for the continued
>
> > > > use of the red window system, in this year
> of 2008.
>
> >
>
> > It seems that at least one person in this group
>
> > find the RED window used for film advancement in
>
> > the TL-120 objectionable. Apparently, mostly
>
> > because it is in the traditional color of RED.
>
>
>
> The point is that for a panchromatic film (technically a
> B&W film, but
>
> color slide film is certainly sensitive to the full
> spectrum) a red
>
> window is no less likely to cause light leaks than a clear
> window.
>
> Back when people used orthochromatic B&W film a red window
> made sense
>
> because the film wasn't sensitive to the red light that
> the window let
>
> through.
>
>
>
> > Some solutions to this "problem" could be:
>
> >
>
> [snip]
>
>
>
> > 3) A mechanical counter coupled with a friction
>
> > wheel on the film could be used to measure the
>
> > film movement and stop the advance when needed.
>
> > This would eliminate the need for the window and
>
> > allow the use of 220 size film doubling the
>
> > number of shots taken between film loadings.
>
> >
>
> > 4) In this modern year of 2008, no doubt, a
>
> > counter wheel could be coupled electronically and
>
> > advance a counter that would indicate how far the
>
> > film had advanced. It could be used to stop an
>
> > electric film advance that was started when the
>
> > shutter closed and would assure proper film
>
> > advancement in total darkness as well as assure
>
> > the film was advanced for each shot to prevent
>
> > double exposures.
>
>
>
> With regards to 3 & 4, when Keith Canham was first
> designing his
>
> motorized 6x17 rollfilm back he told me that it was
> motorized (and the
>
> advance was monitored by a microcontroller) because that
> was cheaper
>
> than designing and building a geared advance.
>
>
>
> > All of these improvements could be incorporated
>
> > at some increase in cost. Of course some people
>
> > just may opt for less expense and a traditional
>
> > RED window.
>
>
>
> A clear window would allow people to more easily see the
> frame
>
> numbers, and traditionalists could simply tape some red
> cellophane to
>
> the inside of the camera back.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Brian Reynolds | "It's just like
> flying a spaceship.
>
> reynolds@panix. com | You push some buttons
> and see
>
> http://www.panix. com/~reynolds/ | what happens." --
> Zapp Brannigan
>
> NAR# 54438 |
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Back to top
>
> Reply to sender
> |
>
> Reply to group
> |
>
> Reply via web post
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic
> (20)
>
>
>
> 2a.
>
>
>
> Re: getting this for the TL120
>
> Posted by: "dlopp2000"
> dlopp@rainier-web.com
>
>
> dlopp2000
>
>
>
> Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:21 pm (PDT)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I recently asked:
>
>
>
> Can anyone offer a valid reason for not using a
>
> plain, clear window ?
>
>
>
> Apparently, there is not a valid reason for not
>
> using a plain clear window.
>
>
>
> I have used both a Rolleidoscop and a Heidoscop
>
> camera.
>
>
>
> Both cameras utilized a red window which was about
>
> 3 inches in width.
>
>
>
> For reasons unknown to me, the cameras were not de-
>
> signed to be used with 120 film, and would only offer
>
> 5 stereo pairs per roll of 120 film.
>
>
>
> After removing the red celluloid window, I was able
>
> re-index the back of the cameras, allowing me to
>
> produce 6 stereo pairs on a roll of 120 film, which
>
> required a film advance that was accurate to within
>
> 1/16th of an inch. The numbers on the back of each
>
> roll of 120 film allowed this degree of accuracy.
>
>
>
> My experience has shown that the opaque black paper
>
> backing on consumer level color slide film, Kodak and
>
> Fuji, can withstand 4 hours of exposure to direct
>
> sunlight.
>
>
>
> There were, and are many roll film cameras, (Hasselblad,
>
> Kodak, Rollei, Ansco, Hasselblad, Fuji, Mamiya, Bronica,
>
> etc), that allow a precision film advance without using
>
> a red window, when advancing the film.
>
>
>
> The patents have expired, and I see no reason to re-invent
>
> the wheel.
>
>
>
> IMO, only Brian has offered a viable solution.
>
>
>
> DON
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Back to top
>
> Reply to sender
> |
>
> Reply to group
> |
>
> Reply via web post
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic
> (20)
>
> 2b.
>
>
>
> Re: getting this for the TL120
>
> Posted by: "John Thurston"
> juneau3d@thurstons.us
>
>
> juneau99803
>
>
>
> Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:48 pm (PDT)
>
>
> dlopp2000 wrote:
>
> > I have used both a Rolleidoscop and a Heidoscop
>
> > camera.
>
> >
>
> > Both cameras utilized a red window which was about
>
> > 3 inches in width.
>
> >
>
> > For reasons unknown to me, the cameras were not de-
>
> > signed to be used with 120 film, and would only
> offer
>
> > 5 stereo pairs per roll of 120 film.
>
>
>
> I think these cameras pre-date the 6x6 markings on what we
>
> now know as 120 film.
>
>
>
> The instructions for my Rolleidoscop indicate it is made to
>
>
> use "B2 6x9" film. And indeed, the window on the
> the back of
>
> my 'scop lines up with the 6x9 markings on my 120 film
> which
>
> accounts for it's odd advance sequence of lining up
>
> different numbers at different places.
>
>
>
> When used with a B2 "Six-spool", it would produce
> four
>
> pairs. When used with a B2 "Eight-spool" , it
> would produce
>
> five pairs plus a half-pair.
>
>
>
> > After removing the red celluloid window, I was able
>
> > re-index the back of the cameras, allowing me to
>
> > produce 6 stereo pairs on a roll of 120 film, which
>
>
> > required a film advance that was accurate to within
>
> > 1/16th of an inch. The numbers on the back of each
>
> > roll of 120 film allowed this degree of accuracy.
>
>
>
> While I understand that you are dead-set against the red
>
> plastic in the window, Don, your same advance sequence can
>
> be used with it in place. I used this advance sequence for
>
>
> several rolls before I decided to narrow my film apertures
>
> and eliminate my tendency to run off the front or back of
>
> the film and overlap images.
>
> http://stereo. thurstons. us/stock_ advance.htm
>
>
>
> I also thought about punching a new hole in the camera back
>
>
> which would line up with the 6x6 markings on the paper. I
>
> decided that was too much work and just made a new
>
> paper-label to put under the existing door.
>
> --
>
> John Thurston
>
> Juneau Alaska
>
> http://stereo. thurstons. us
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Back to top
>
> Reply to sender
> |
>
> Reply to group
> |
>
> Reply via web post
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic
> (20)
>
> 2c.
>
>
>
> Re: getting this for the TL120
>
> Posted by: "dlopp2000"
> dlopp@rainier-web.com
>
>
> dlopp2000
>
>
>
> Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:41 am (PDT)
>
>
>
>
> Based on the history, I believe that 120 roll film did have
> 6 x 6
>
> markings, at the time my 1934 Heidoscop, and my 1937
> Roleidoscop
>
> were manufactured.
>
>
>
> In 1934, the German), Eichapfel Noviflex reflex camera
> took
>
> 6 x 6 images, with the aid of a red window, on 120 film.
>
>
>
> In 1935, the Reflex-Korelle SLR camera took 6 x 6 images on
> 120
>
> film, with the aid of a red window.
>
>
>
> In 1936, the Olympus Camera Co. of Japan produced a 6 x 6
> folder
>
> camera, the Semi-Olympus Model 1, which took 12 pictures on
> 120
>
> roll film, with the aid of a red window.
>
>
>
> The first Rollei, the Rolleiflex 1, a (6 x 6), camera did
> use a red
>
> window to aid in advancing the 120 film properly. It was
> first pro-
>
> duced in 1929.
>
>
>
> My understanding is that the Rolleiflex, (6 x 6), TLR was
> designed,
>
> by Franke & Heidecke, following the financial success of
> their roll
>
> film stereo cameras.
>
>
>
> I realize that German camera manufacturers, in the
> 1930's, were not
>
> prone to make changes unless prodded by their competition.
> Franke &
>
> Heidecke could have easily changed the position of the red
> window
>
> in their stereo camera's, in the 1930's, to take
> advantage of the
>
> 6 x 6 markings on the available 120 film.
>
>
>
> I can only guess as to why F & H did not alter their stereo
> cameras
>
> to operate with the 6 x 6 marked 120 roll film.
>
>
>
> The advertisements in the National Geographic magazine,
> (1938), cited
>
> the soft shutter release on the Roleidoscop camera.
>
>
>
> DON
>
>
>
> friendly camera's in the 1950's.
>
>
>
> A side point is that on all of the Heidoscop and
> Rolleidoscop
>
> camera's that I have seen, contained Z Tessar lenses
> manufactured
>
> in the year, 1927.
>
>
>
> DON
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Back to top
>
> Reply to sender
> |
>
> Reply to group
> |
>
> Reply via web post
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic
> (20)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Recent Activity
>
>
>
> 1
> New Members
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Visit Your Group
>
>
>
>
>
> Only on Yahoo!
> Star Wars galaxy
> Create a profile
> and meet fans.
>
> Yahoo! News
> Odd News
> You won't believe
> it, but it's true
>
> Biz Resources
> Y! Small Business
> Articles, tools,
> forms, and more.
>
>
>
>
> Need to Reply?
> Click one of the "Reply" links to
> respond to a specific message in the Daily Digest.
>
>
>
>
>
> Create New Topic |
>
> Visit Your Group on the Web
>
>
>
>
>
> Messages
> | Files
> | Photos
> | Links
> | Database
> | Polls
> | Members
> | Calendar
>
>
>
> MARKETPLACE
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups users, check out this limited
> time offer from Blockbuster! Rent DVDs free for a month!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
>
> Change settings via email: Switch delivery to
> Individual | Switch format to Traditional
>
>
> Visit Your Group |
>
> Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use |
>
> Unsubscribe