I've am very happy with my Sputnik camera which has been modded to
resolve its many deficiencies.

The only thing missing are quality lenses. The images from the
factory lenses are sharp to the untrained eye (my wife). To my eye
they are ok->good. IMHO, they could be considerably sharper. I
haven't ever seen a slide from a 3D World camera so I can't be sure
that what I'm seeing is the Sputnik lenses vs. limitations of the film
(Provia 100F), 3D world viewer, etc.

I don't have a lot of experience in optics and I know you list members
do. I'm eager to learn.

Is it possible to find glass elements which can replace the existing
three elements in each lens? Would they be any sharper/better than
what's already in there? Are the limitations the quality of the glass
or the optical design of the lens itself?

Fitting new glass elements to the existing structure (shutter, size of
fittings, etc) would make things easier. Is this possible?

If not, what would you recommend. I'm eager to tinker. That is part
of the fun. Thanks!

amuderick wrote:

> I've am very happy with my Sputnik camera which has been modded to
> resolve its many deficiencies.
>
> The only thing missing are quality lenses. The images from the
> factory lenses are sharp to the untrained eye (my wife). To my eye
> they are ok->good. IMHO, they could be considerably sharper. I
> haven't ever seen a slide from a 3D World camera so I can't be sure
> that what I'm seeing is the Sputnik lenses vs. limitations of the film
> (Provia 100F), 3D world viewer, etc.

There are many discussions in the archives regarding sputnik lenses and
how to get sharp images.
In short, from easiest to hardest:
Get the best from the lenses you have
Install the best T-22 lenses you can find
Replace the lenses with something else

Before you start tearing into your lenses, though, can you give us any
more details about what "modded' means? Without this information,
though, I'm going to offer some questions.

Could you be confusing lack of contrast with lack of sharpness?
Do you shoot with lens hoods?
Are you using f/16 and f/22, or expecting sharp images at f/8 and f/11?
Are your left and right images equally sharp?
The front elements are notorious for vibrating with shutter release.
Could you be seeing lens vibration artifacts?
What focal distance are you using (at what f-stop)? Could your images
simply be out of focus?

With more details about your camera and how you are using it, we can
offer more suggestions on how to get the most from you camera.

John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska

John,

Thanks for this reply.

I do use lens hoods and think the images have good contrast, good color.  All of my shots are at f/16 or better. 

My left and right are not equally sharp.  I have compared them under a 10x loupe.  I have tested to make sure it isn't an issue with focus synchronization.  I think this is due to an the take-up-side metal roller jutting out further than the roller on the supply-side.  Perhaps this is moving the film out of the plane of focus on the left side? I have fixed that this past week and need to run a test roll.  Then I'll know if that is solved.

How can I tell if I have lens vibration artifacts? 

The images are taken outdoors and I recognize the depth of field available.  When I look for sharpness, I try to evaluate a near, middle, far, and infinity object in the frame to make sure the problem isn't focus.  I am seeing softness well before I see grain.  As I mentioned above, the sharpness of the right frame is better than the left.  Maybe I'm wrong and this is the best it can be?  I haven't seen a 3D World Camera slide pair in person.  Nor do I have a nice MF camera (Mamiya 6, etc) to take a similar shot and compare. 

My camera says T-22 f/4.5 on the lens gearing.  Does this unit already have T-22 lenses?  Are some better than others?

Thanks!

Aaron

John Thurston wrote:

amuderick wrote:
> I've am very happy with my Sputnik camera which has been modded to
> resolve its many deficiencies.
>
> The only thing missing are quality lenses. The images from the
> factory lenses are sharp to the untrained eye (my wife). To my eye
> they are ok->good. IMHO, they could be considerably sharper. I
> haven't ever seen a slide from a 3D World camera so I can't be sure
> that what I'm seeing is the Sputnik lenses vs. limitations of the film
> (Provia 100F), 3D world viewer, etc.

There are many discussions in the archives regarding sputnik lenses and
how to get sharp images.
In short, from easiest to hardest:
Get the best from the lenses you have
Install the best T-22 lenses you can find
Replace the lenses with something else

Before you start tearing into your lenses, though, can you give us any
more details about what "modded' means? Without this information,
though, I'm going to offer some questions.

Could you be confusing lack of contrast with lack of sharpness?
Do you shoot with lens hoods?
Are you using f/16 and f/22, or expecting sharp images at f/8 and f/11?
Are your left and right images equally sharp?
The front elements are notorious for vibrating with shutter release.
Could you be seeing lens vibration artifacts?
What focal distance are you using (at what f-stop)? Could your images
simply be out of focus?

With more details about your camera and how you are using it, we can
offer more suggestions on how to get the most from you camera.

John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska

Aaron Muderick wrote:

> How can I tell if I have lens vibration artifacts?

It would look kind of like a non-tripod-mounted image. Do the front
elements rotate smoothly when you focus? can you rock them around with
your finger tips?
One way to test this out is to focus your camera and then slide some
pieces of open cell foam behind the focusing gear. You can then see if
that picture is sharper than one without the foam damping.

> The images are taken outdoors and I recognize the depth of field
> available. When I look for sharpness, I try to evaluate a near, middle,
> far, and infinity object in the frame to make sure the problem isn't
> focus. I am seeing softness well before I see grain. As I mentioned
> above, the sharpness of the right frame is better than the left. Maybe
> I'm wrong and this is the best it can be? I haven't seen a 3D World
> Camera slide pair in person. Nor do I have a nice MF camera (Mamiya 6,
> etc) to take a similar shot and compare.

Well, Aaron, where do you live? Maybe someone here can mail you a few
slides so you can see what others consider to be acceptably-sharp
sputnik pictures.

> My camera says T-22 f/4.5 on the lens gearing. Does this unit already
> have T-22 lenses? Are some better than others?

Yes, the Sputnik has T-22 lenses. They do, of course, vary in quality.
Buying a dozen Lomos on flea-bay and trying all the lenses to find the
best is a lot of work, but you _might_ find some better lenses.

John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska

John,

I will try to damp the front elements and see what happens.  As-is, they don't rotate very smoothly.  The poor quality of the gear teeth mean they are pretty well locked in place at the point of focus.  But, I'll give it a try.

I live just outside Philadelphia, PA.  Far from Juneau. I'd be willing to email a prepaid UPS shipping label (tracked, insured) to anyone who would be willing to send me a test image for evaluation and then prompt return.

Thanks,
Aaron

John Thurston wrote:

Aaron Muderick wrote:
> How can I tell if I have lens vibration artifacts?

It would look kind of like a non-tripod-mounted image. Do the front
elements rotate smoothly when you focus? can you rock them around with
your finger tips?
One way to test this out is to focus your camera and then slide some
pieces of open cell foam behind the focusing gear. You can then see if
that picture is sharper than one without the foam damping.

> The images are taken outdoors and I recognize the depth of field
> available. When I look for sharpness, I try to evaluate a near, middle,
> far, and infinity object in the frame to make sure the problem isn't
> focus. I am seeing softness well before I see grain. As I mentioned
> above, the sharpness of the right frame is better than the left. Maybe
> I'm wrong and this is the best it can be? I haven't seen a 3D World
> Camera slide pair in person. Nor do I have a nice MF camera (Mamiya 6,
> etc) to take a similar shot and compare.

Well, Aaron, where do you live? Maybe someone here can mail you a few
slides so you can see what others consider to be acceptably-sharp
sputnik pictures.

> My camera says T-22 f/4.5 on the lens gearing. Does this unit already
> have T-22 lenses? Are some better than others?

Yes, the Sputnik has T-22 lenses. They do, of course, vary in quality.
Buying a dozen Lomos on flea-bay and trying all the lenses to find the
best is a lot of work, but you _might_ find some better lenses.

John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska

Aaron Muderick wrote:

> I live just outside Philadelphia, PA. Far from Juneau. I'd be willing
> to email a prepaid UPS shipping label (tracked, insured) to anyone who
> would be willing to send me a test image for evaluation and then prompt
> return.

Gwarsh, that sounds involved. I usually just stick a couple slides in a
stiffened envelope and call it good :) I'm currently out of town, but
when I return (and if someone else hasn't already done it) I'll see if I
can find a couple slides to send your way.

John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska

I think the impending production of these cameras was announced, but
here are a couple Ebay links to the Colour Flash Holga Stereo camera:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Colour-Flash-Lomo-3D-Stereo-Holga-120-Camera-set_W0QQitemZ250334478461QQcmdZViewItemQQptZFilm_Cameras?hash=item250334478461&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318


and pinhole MF stereo camera:

http://cgi.ebay.com/HOLGA-120-3D-Pinhole-Stereo-Camera-Package-120PC-3D_W0QQitemZ390013068525QQcmdZViewItemQQptZFilm_Cameras?hash=item390013068525&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318

The pinhole camera also includes a 35mm back.

If the links are too long, just enter the item numbers.

BTW, my subject heading was a joke and the Holga camera describer
appears to make no pretensions about the camera. I do have one serious
question. Can you take interesting stereo MF photos with a pinhole
stereo camera? And if you can, is it possible with a plastic aperture?
With an F125 aperture and the holes drilled into relatively thick
plastic (compared to some very expensive sheet film pinhole cameras), I
can imagine that the discrepancy between the two images could be very
hard to fuse.

Dale Yingst

Replace the holga lenses with Woca glass meniscus lenses, add an f/16 or f/22 mask and you'll probably get decent-enough shots.  But, for that price you can get a Sputnik.

Aaron

dale yingst wrote:

I think the impending production of these cameras was announced, but
here are a couple Ebay links to the Colour Flash Holga Stereo camera:

http://cgi.ebay. com/Colour- Flash-Lomo- 3D-Stereo- Holga-120- Camera-set_ W0QQitemZ2503344 78461QQcmdZViewI temQQptZFilm_ Cameras?hash= item250334478461 &_trksid= p3286.c0. m14&_trkparms= 72%3A1234|66%3A2|65%3A12| 39%3A1|240% 3A1318

and pinhole MF stereo camera:

http://cgi.ebay. com/HOLGA- 120-3D-Pinhole- Stereo-Camera- Package-120PC- 3D_W0QQitemZ3900 13068525QQcmdZVi ewItemQQptZFilm_ Cameras?hash= item390013068525 &_trksid= p3286.c0. m14&_trkparms= 72%3A1234|66%3A2|65%3A12| 39%3A1|240% 3A1318

The pinhole camera also includes a 35mm back.

If the links are too long, just enter the item numbers.

BTW, my subject heading was a joke and the Holga camera describer
appears to make no pretensions about the camera. I do have one serious
question. Can you take interesting stereo MF photos with a pinhole
stereo camera? And if you can, is it possible with a plastic aperture?
With an F125 aperture and the holes drilled into relatively thick
plastic (compared to some very expensive sheet film pinhole cameras), I
can imagine that the discrepancy between the two images could be very
hard to fuse.

Dale Yingst

http://tinyurl.com/5js9wa
They actually mention glass lenses such as I assume are in the Woca.
I'm sure with a little tweeking they would provides adequate results.
Definately better than the old Puck and Eho box cameras. With the
twin color flashes you could have yellow from one and red from the
other. The viewer does add some value to the outfit.
Look here for my Holga stereo I made about 15 years ago. Results were
not bad. Also see a Swiss Cheese MF pinhole stereo.
http://tech.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/photo-3d/photos/browse/e0bc
I may break down and get one of these, if I can justify the cost.

Rod S

--- In MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Muderick wrote:
>
> Replace the holga lenses with Woca glass meniscus lenses, add an
f/16 or
> f/22 mask and you'll probably get decent-enough shots. But, for
that
> price you can get a Sputnik.
>
> Aaron

I wonder if the pinhole camera really does have a 1/100 sec. shutter?
Duh?
If it does have plastic pinholes, you could try them and if they are
poor, they should be easy to replace with your own. There shouldn't be
too much difference between exposures and effect if the pinholes are
good. They should fuse OK but be soft. One problem with these types of
cameras is that you really need ASA 50 or 25 since 4-8 sec. is hard to
do without shaking the camera 15-30 sec will make a much nicer
exposure.

Rod S

> and pinhole MF stereo camera:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/HOLGA-120-3D-Pinhole-Stereo-Camera-Package-120PC-

3D_W0QQitemZ390013068525QQcmdZViewItemQQptZFilm_Cameras?
hash=item390013068525&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234|66%
3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318

>

I discovered the stereo Holgas on Ebay just yesterday, and for about $100 I am very tempted. I own a Holga, and they are fun. A stereo Holga would sure be a lot easier than my twin Rollei TLR system!!!
Dan

Aaron Muderick wrote:

Replace the holga lenses with Woca glass meniscus lenses, add an f/16 or f/22 mask and you'll probably get decent-enough shots.  But, for that price you can get a Sputnik.

Aaron

dale yingst wrote:

I think the impending production of these cameras was announced, but
here are a couple Ebay links to the Colour Flash Holga Stereo camera:

http://cgi.ebay. com/Colour- Flash-Lomo- 3D-Stereo- Holga-120- Camera-set_ W0QQitemZ2503344 78461QQcmdZViewI temQQptZFilm_ Cameras?hash= item250334478461 &_trksid= p3286.c0. m14&_trkparms= 72%3A1234|66%3A2|65%3A12| 39%3A1|240% 3A1318

and pinhole MF stereo camera:

http://cgi.ebay. com/HOLGA- 120-3D-Pinhole- Stereo-Camera- Package-120PC- 3D_W0QQitemZ3900 13068525QQcmdZVi ewItemQQptZFilm_ Cameras?hash= item390013068525 &_trksid= p3286.c0. m14&_trkparms= 72%3A1234|66%3A2|65%3A12| 39%3A1|240% 3A1318

The pinhole camera also includes a 35mm back.

If the links are too long, just enter the item numbers.

BTW, my subject heading was a joke and the Holga camera describer
appears to make no pretensions about the camera. I do have one serious
question. Can you take interesting stereo MF photos with a pinhole
stereo camera? And if you can, is it possible with a plastic aperture?
With an F125 aperture and the holes drilled into relatively thick
plastic (compared to some very expensive sheet film pinhole cameras), I
can imagine that the discrepancy between the two images could be very
hard to fuse.

Dale Yingst

dale yingst wrote:

>
> I think the impending production of these cameras was announced, but
> here are a couple Ebay links to the Colour Flash Holga Stereo
> camera:

[ebay 390013068525]

> and pinhole MF stereo camera:

[ebay 390013068525]

> The pinhole camera also includes a 35mm back.
>
> If the links are too long, just enter the item numbers.

When I was at Photo Expo Plus this year Freestyle Photographic
Supplies <http://freestylephoto.biz/> had a variety of odd ball
Holgas. I don't remember if I saw any of the stereo cameras, but they
did have a 6x12 pinhole camera. I thought it might make an
interesting 6x12 back for experimenting with a stere design, if light
leaks and other typical Holga problems could be over come.

> BTW, my subject heading was a joke and the Holga camera describer
> appears to make no pretensions about the camera. I do have one
> serious question. Can you take interesting stereo MF photos with a
> pinhole stereo camera? And if you can, is it possible with a
> plastic aperture? With an F125 aperture and the holes drilled into
> relatively thick plastic (compared to some very expensive sheet film
> pinhole cameras), I can imagine that the discrepancy between the two
> images could be very hard to fuse.

Yes it is possible to take MF stereo pinhole photos. I've done so
with a Zero Imaging 69 mutli-format camera on a slide bar. Whether or
not they are interesting is subjective, and depends on the skill of
the photographer. My stereo pinholes were test shots and I make no
claim of great art.

I haven't seen the insides of a pinhole Holga, but it should be fairly
easy to swap the pinhole with a different one.

It's not hard to make a good pinhole. You can use aluminum from a
soda can, or get some shim stock. There are instructions online, and
I can provide pointers.

A 4x5 pinhole camera does not have to be expensive. A foamcore,
cardboard, or wood box can be made into a (stereo) pinhole camera
fairly easily.

--
Brian Reynolds | "It's just like flying a spaceship.
reynolds@panix.com | You push some buttons and see
http://www.panix.com/~reynolds/ | what happens." -- Zapp Brannigan
NAR# 54438 |

Hi Dale and all. Someone else on this list got me interested in the Holga and similar plastic cameras. In fact, many call them "toy" cameras because of the plastic lenses and are loved *for* their unpredictability, light leaks etc. Some call it artistic. There's a trend toward adapting older cameras for modrn film because of their quirkiness. It's all a niche market as 3D is. If you consider tinkering a form of testing the waters then the unknown may appeal to you. I want a Holga for just that reason.

I made a pinhole out of a dollar store camera and an aluminum can this past spring, aiming for imperfection. The exposures were carefully measured with a stopwatch and the results were completely unpredictable. It's interesting to use precise calculations for an unpredictable result.

If expirementing is your thing, go for it and get a Holga. Fix it up with better lenses, less light leaks etc. At worst, you'll have a unique camera.

Merging a soft focus, soft edged image will be a challenge but may yield interesting results.

David
LeRoy, NY

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 1:23 PM, dale yingst <dyingst4@comcast.net> wrote:

I think the impending production of these cameras was announced, but
here are a couple Ebay links to the Colour Flash Holga Stereo camera:

BTW, my subject heading was a joke and the Holga camera describer
appears to make no pretensions about the camera.