Hi

Just had my 11 rolls back from the lab and last thurs london shoot had two rolls where the film was slipping and double exposing.

Only seen happen on the realist before and it had to be sent off for a servicing.

Anyone else had it? Whats the fix?

M

120 film has paper backing with the numbers printed, so if you advance the
film to odd #s, I don't see how that could happen. I'm guessing operator
error. I've certainly had my share.

Were these the last 2 rolls of the 11 you exposed?

Bob Venezia
Seattle, Washington

Quoting Mark <blackice@pavilion.co.uk>:

> Hi
>
> Just had my 11 rolls back from the lab and last thurs london shoot had
> two rolls where the film was slipping and double exposing.
>
> Only seen happen on the realist before and it had to be sent off for a
> servicing.
>
> Anyone else had it? Whats the fix?
>
> M
>
>

Mark wrote:

> Hi
>
> Just had my 11 rolls back from the lab and last thurs
> london shoot had two rolls where the film was slipping
> and double exposing.

As Bob has pointed out, there isn't much to slip. The
leading edge of the film is taped to the backing paper so
their relative positions can't change mid-roll.

How much overlap is there? Because the film gates on the
TL120 are so large, there is very little room for error when
advancing the film. To maximize the inter-image space, I am
very careful with the advance. As I advance through my roll,
I _try_ to "walk" the frame number across the red window.
That is, when I stop advancing for frame-1, the #1 is just
barely visible in the left of the window. When I stop
advancing for frame-2, the #3 is a little farther into the
window. etc. When I stop advancing for frame-6, the #11 just
visible in the right of the window. Examine your processed,
uncut film film to see just how much slop there is at each
end of the roll.

How are the images in the double exposures?

Are they squarely exposed on top of each other? If so you
may have advanced 1,3,5,6,8,10 That is, "slipped" onto
advancing to even numbers rather than odd. I sometimes
intentionally do this if I'm doing slide-bar shots or if I
tripped the shutter with the lens caps on (it lets me
re-cock the shutter with only one frame lost rather than
two). It is also easy to do accidentally :P I keep meaning
to put a sticker on the back of my camera "Advance to odd
numbers", but haven't done it yet.

Are the expected scenes correctly spaced on the film and
these doubles are extras? If so, then the shutter may have
been tripped _while_ you were advancing the film. This has
been reported off and on over the years with the TL120. Some
cameras seem very susceptible to this behavior while others
are not. One of my TL120s is twitchy like this, so I remove
the cable-release before advancing the film unless I have
the camera on the tripod.

Figuring out what is happening will require information from
the appearance of the uncut film. If you can share a scan,
we'll be able to offer better suggestions.
--
John Thurston
Juneau Alaska
http://stereo.thurstons.us

> Are the expected scenes correctly spaced on the film and
> these doubles are extras? If so, then the shutter may have
> been tripped _while_ you were advancing the film. This has
> been reported off and on over the years with the TL120. Some
> cameras seem very susceptible to this behavior while others
> are not. One of my TL120s is twitchy like this, so I remove
> the cable-release before advancing the film unless I have
> the camera on the tripod.

I'll check them again later in detail when I get to mounting more up. I had been shooting on a tripod with the cable release which I've found to be a bit sticky, so swapped (or lost) the long one for a short one.

It was last roll at the church and the roll I took in Hoxton Square. As I shot multiples I did secure the photo needed (in photos btw).

They are overlayed in some cases and I do remember hearing some intresting grinding sounds when advancing. The remainder of the films shot that day were fine as were Tuesday nights test shoot.

Two more shoots end of week so I'll keep a keen eye on it.

M

I have uploaded a segment of the film. Seemed to effect two rolls one after each other.

Next shoots thurs and friday.

I was using a release cable for that shoot so I wonder if that was part of the issue?

M

--- In MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" wrote:
>
> > Are the expected scenes correctly spaced on the film and
> > these doubles are extras? If so, then the shutter may have
> > been tripped _while_ you were advancing the film. This has
> > been reported off and on over the years with the TL120. Some
> > cameras seem very susceptible to this behavior while others
> > are not. One of my TL120s is twitchy like this, so I remove
> > the cable-release before advancing the film unless I have
> > the camera on the tripod.
>
> I'll check them again later in detail when I get to mounting more up. I had been shooting on a tripod with the cable release which I've found to be a bit sticky, so swapped (or lost) the long one for a short one.
>
> It was last roll at the church and the roll I took in Hoxton Square. As I shot multiples I did secure the photo needed (in photos btw).
>
> They are overlayed in some cases and I do remember hearing some intresting grinding sounds when advancing. The remainder of the films shot that day were fine as were Tuesday nights test shoot.
>
> Two more shoots end of week so I'll keep a keen eye on it.
>
> M
>

--- In MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" wrote:

>
> I have uploaded a segment of the film. Seemed to effect two rolls one after each other.
>
> Next shoots thurs and friday.
>
> I was using a release cable for that shoot so I wonder if that was part of the issue?
>

Hi Mark,

I did have an issue a long while ago with my camera when I used a cable release. I seem to recall that I had a problem with the shutter button after I had used the cable release and then taken it off the camera. I discovered after a while that when I had unscrewed the cable release, it had also unscrewed either the shutter button or possibly the shutter button surround which in turn affected how far the shutter button itself could be depressed.

Not sure if any of this could cause your problems but I thought I'd mention it since you spoke about the cable release. Might be worth a look to see if the button or surround has been unscrewed a little.

regards,

Harry Calderbank

Mark,

I think I know the answer. You mentioned a grinding sound, and using a cable
release. Some cable releases lock when you press them, and need to be
unlocked. If it's a locking cable release, make sure it's unlocked before you
advance the film. I think the shutter is being forced open by the locked cable
release, and you can see the exposure that's made with each turn of the crank.

The locked release, advanced with film, will make a grinding sound. Let's just
say I learned that somewhere, and keep it at that.

Let us know if this solves your issue.

best regards,
Bob Venezia
Seattle, Washington


Quoting Mark <blackice@pavilion.co.uk>:

> I have uploaded a segment of the film. Seemed to effect two rolls one
> after each other.
>
> Next shoots thurs and friday.
>
> I was using a release cable for that shoot so I wonder if that was part
> of the issue?
>
> M
>
>
>
>
> --- In MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" wrote:
> >
> > > Are the expected scenes correctly spaced on the film and
> > > these doubles are extras? If so, then the shutter may have
> > > been tripped _while_ you were advancing the film. This has
> > > been reported off and on over the years with the TL120. Some
> > > cameras seem very susceptible to this behavior while others
> > > are not. One of my TL120s is twitchy like this, so I remove
> > > the cable-release before advancing the film unless I have
> > > the camera on the tripod.
> >
> > I'll check them again later in detail when I get to mounting more up.
> I had been shooting on a tripod with the cable release which I've found
> to be a bit sticky, so swapped (or lost) the long one for a short one.
> >
> > It was last roll at the church and the roll I took in Hoxton Square.
> As I shot multiples I did secure the photo needed (in photos btw).
> >
> > They are overlayed in some cases and I do remember hearing some
> intresting grinding sounds when advancing. The remainder of the films
> shot that day were fine as were Tuesday nights test shoot.
> >
> > Two more shoots end of week so I'll keep a keen eye on it.
> >
> > M
> >
>
>
>

Thanks Bob, I had a feeling it was something cable release related as that was only real variable in it all.

One thing is the 2nd roll was taken outside with no release and the issue 'carried over' to the 2nd roll.

So is there an optimum type of cable release we should all be using?

Sort of a design issue with these camera's then if you can't reliably use a cable release.

Kludges or work arounds?

M

--- In MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com, bob@... wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> I think I know the answer. You mentioned a grinding sound, and using a cable
> release. Some cable releases lock when you press them, and need to be
> unlocked. If it's a locking cable release, make sure it's unlocked before you
> advance the film. I think the shutter is being forced open by the locked cable
> release, and you can see the exposure that's made with each turn of the crank.
>
> The locked release, advanced with film, will make a grinding sound. Let's just
> say I learned that somewhere, and keep it at that.
>
> Let us know if this solves your issue.
>
> best regards,
> Bob Venezia
> Seattle, Washington
>

Hi Mark,

Mark wrote:

> So is there an optimum type of cable release we should all be using?

> Sort of a design issue with these camera's then if you can't reliably use a cable release.

The TL120 has more than one design "issue". They have been
cataloged over the years. In this case, Bob's suggestion of
testing the camera without film is about all you can do.
Open the back, connect your cable release and start
exercising the shutter and the advance.

Does the camera behave correctly without film and without a
cable release connected? What about with a cable release? A
cable release partly pressed? Does it behave differently if
the camera is "loaded" and used with a roll of backing paper?

There are enough variations in the TL120 camera that further
speculation from this end without more information from that
end isn't going to accomplish much.
--
John Thurston
Juneau Alaska
http://stereo.thurstons.us

> Hi Mark,
>
> I still use a locking release. I just know now to unlock it before
> advancing the film.

I was just using the cable release, never locked it.

> If your camera still showed symptoms of the problem without the
> release, it sounds like something got jammed. Have you taken any shots since that did not exhibit the problem?

my sop is to change batteries for any shoot, check the shutter speeds with the back open. Rolls last week were fine. Shots after the 2 rolls that were problematic were fine. Shot 8 rolls at a fashion show last night (actually all backstage and posed). Another 2 or so posed models tonight. We'll see how those turn out.

LR44's are cheap in bulk and I bought a couple of LED/laser penlights which I'll give away with the spare semi used batteries.

> And if there's no film in the camera now, can you open the back and advance the film crank, and see if the problem is persisting?

All fine so far.

M

Just an update from two shoots last week and 9 rolls later - all seemed fine for winding and advancing.

Films posted to lab and I'll get them back tomorrow.

Really seems to be a shutter release issue.

There was a mention of TL120 'issues'. Can someone post a list so we have a heads up?

M

Mark wrote:

> There was a mention of TL120 'issues'. Can someone post a
> list so we have a heads up?

For this you'll have to check the archives, Mark. There are
too many "versions" and too many reporters to try to collect
this information in one place.

The TL120 has been improved, ruined, fixed, enhanced, broken
and adjusted over the course of its production life. Exactly
which changes are described by which verbs depends on who is
describing the change.
--
John Thurston
Juneau Alaska
http://stereo.thurstons.us