At the 2010 NSA convention in Ohio, I felt there was a bit of
discussion and interest in protective sleeves for medium
format slides.

Some history:
Paul Talbot used to sell sleeves which were suitable for use
with 80x132 cardboard mounts. These were clear, and are
characterized by an obvious seam along one long edge. Many
people like these sleeves, though I have found that the seam
sometimes catches in a viewer and will come unglued with the
passage of time. I have been unable to use these sleeves on
80x140 plastic mounts. I will henceforth refer to these as
"RMM Sleeves".

A few years ago, Sam Smith created a seamless sleeve which
was suitable for use on both 80x132 cardboard and 80x140
plastic mounts. The seamless nature of this product, as well
as its usefulness on both plastic and cardboard mounts, makes
it a much superior product (IMnsHO). I will henceforth refer
to these as "SamSmith Sleeves".

Current availability:
As far as I know, the only current source for sleeves is via
ebay from hackitnow in Round Rock, Texas. You can see a
sample (for a while, yet) in the closed action for item
number 120603086944. I have had a very brief email exchange
with the seller and have learned that these are a new run of
RMM sleeves. If seamed RMM sleeves are what you need, you
should try to connect with hackitnow and purchase some.

Futures:
I think I have a couple hundred sleeves left but I know
others are not in such a comfortable position. I'd like to
get a few more sleeves for my inventory as well as make them
available to others.

I strongly prefer the SamSmith sleeves to the RMM sleeves
available from hackitnow, so will go a different path.

Questions:
Does anyone else want sleeves for their MF3D mounts? Let's
work on the assumption that these will cost $35/100 (plus
postage) which just a little more than Sam quoted them back
in 2007.

Is anyone else interested or should I pursue this project
only for myself?

If you are interested, how many hundred will you purchase?
This means really spend money on, right now, up front, before
the product is produced and ready to ship.

If you are interested, how many hundred might you purchase in
the next couple years. You aren't promising to purchase, but
might, kinda-sorta, maybe be purchasing at some indefinite
time in the future.

Please contact me OFF-LIST to express your interest (or
disinterest) in this idea. I'll give this idea a couple days
to percolate. If there is insufficient interest shown here,
I'll post it over on photo-3d before proceeding with just my
private build and purchase.
________________________________________
John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska
http://stereo.thurstons.us

Bob Venezia wrote:

> On Sep 20, 2010, at 7:59 PM, John Thurston wrote:
>> I strongly prefer the SamSmith sleeves to the RMM sleeves
>> available from hackitnow, so will go a different path.

> I'm curious what it is that makes you strongly prefer the Sam sleeves. I
> have no doubt that it's a superior product, but does it make a
> difference when looking through one layer? I guess I've never noticed,
> but maybe I'm not paying enough attention.

I'll go ahead and respond to this on-list since the question
was posed on-list :)

It is the seam rather than the transparency that gets me. If
I put it at the bottom of the slide, it can catch inside the
viewer and jam the slide as I try to lift it out. If I put
it at the top, it can flip out and catch outside and prevent
the slide from falling all the way into the viewer. Either
way, it interferes with smooth slide transitions.

Further, the seam breaks loose with time. I have had more
than a few of them come loose on me leaving me holding a
slide in one hand and a folded bit of plastic in the other.

Not to mention that they don't work worth spit on the
80x140mm plastic mounts. There isn't enough flex to handle
the thickness of the mount without ripping the seam out.

In their defense, the RMM sleeves cost a lot less than what
I'm proposing having made.
--
John Thurston
Juneau Alaska
http://stereo.thurstons.us

"John Thurston" Wrote:

> It is the seam rather than the transparency that gets me.

If

> I put it at the bottom of the slide, it can catch inside

the

> viewer and jam the slide as I try to lift it out. If I put
> it at the top, it can flip out and catch outside and

prevent

> the slide from falling all the way into the viewer. Either
> way, it interferes with smooth slide transitions.
>

I have had sleeves hang up inside the Saturn viewer if the
seam is on the bottom so I now put it on the top in the
back. It has always worked for me at that position. The
problem I have had with the "Sam Smith" sleeves is that they
did not fit all the mounts I was using. Particularly the
Q-VU King Inn mounts. The sleeves are generally not high
enough to get the mount in them without bending something.
I found them a bit tight with some RMM mounts as well.
Actually the sleeves seemed to have some variance in height
and I had some that would take a Q-VU mount. In all
fairness, there is some variance in the height of all the
cardboard mounts too, likely due to moisture content when
the mounts were cut and the resulting shrinkage or expansion
in storage. If the "SS" sleeves were made a mm or two
taller it would solve that problem.

I also had a problem with the "RMM sleeves" I bought from
Johnson in Round Rock TX. The batch I got from him (Off
E-BAY) was cut at 134mm length, just about 2mm longer than
the RMM mounts, and that caused some complaints in the Folio
round I put them in. I still use them but trim the length
to 130mm before allowing them to go in the folio box.

The real problem with the sleeves is going to be the mounts.
The sleeve should fit the mounts well and there seems to be
a problem getting mounts. RMM has not had the standard RMM
mounts for quite some time now. The last I heard , only the
cropping mounts are available. "3Dstereo" was selling the
RMM size 50mmX50mm mounts in black only but, although they
are still listed as available on her site, she doesn't seem
to ship any. (At least I couldn't get any from her or get
her to answer e-mail as to why not.) Quentin at Quellen has
told me that his King Inn mounts are no longer available.
That leaves only the odd-ball size 3Dworld plastic mounts,
which will not fit most of the viewers in use today. They
fit in the RMM and SS sleeves, so some say, but stick out on
the sides due to their wider construction.

With a shortage of good 132X80 mounts, I have begun cutting
my own mounts by hand. I can use either of the sleeves by
cutting the sleeves to fit the viewers and the mounts to fit
the sleeves and viewer. I really don't like making my own
mounts, it is boring and takes too much time and I am still
looking for better paper to use. I do it from necessity.
We really need a good supply of good mounts and then we can
figure out what sleeves to put on them.

Chuck Holzner

"Chuck Holzner" <3D4me@...> wrote:
"That leaves only the odd-ball size 3Dworld plastic mounts,
which will not fit most of the viewers in use today."
You mean to say that there are more Saturn Slide viewers than Chinese viewers in use today? I find that hard to believe given the price difference. I never owned a Saturn Slide viewer, but I've got two of the Chinese viewers.
Steve

(Was "MF3D Sleeves - gauging interest")

Isn't this a problem?!!!

Chuck Holzner said:

>>The real problem with the sleeves is going to be the mounts...

RMM has not had the standard RMM mounts for quite some time now. The last I heard , only the cropping mounts are available. "3Dstereo" was selling the RMM size 50mmX50mm mounts in black only but, although they
are still listed as available on her site, she doesn't seem
to ship any. (At least I couldn't get any from her or get
her to answer e-mail as to why not.) Quentin at Quellen has
told me that his King Inn mounts are no longer available.
That leaves only the odd-ball size 3Dworld plastic mounts...
We really need a good supply of good mounts and then we can
figure out what sleeves to put on them.<<

I suppose someone could approach 3DWorld about their interest in producing a cardboard mount, though I doubt they would pursue that as the plastic mounts are obviously an ongoing stream of income for them.

Is it possible that someone with familiarity with the industry, i.e. Berezin, George T, 3DConcepts, could "take the reins" and investigate developing a new production source of cardboard MF mounts (if, of course, all other production sources have dried up)?

John

coronet3d wrote:

> "Chuck Holzner" <3D4me@...> wrote:
>> That leaves only the odd-ball size 3Dworld plastic mounts, which
>> will not fit most of the viewers in use today.
>
> You mean to say that there are more Saturn Slide viewers than
> Chinese viewers in use today? I find that hard to believe given the
> price difference. I never owned a Saturn Slide viewer, but I've got
> two of the Chinese viewers.

I manage one of the MF3D folios. So far only one person has ever
submitted a plastic mount to the folio. That slide did not fit in my
3D World focusing viewer (the latest version). I have not yet
officially required cardboard mounts, but I don't look forward to
anyone in the folio using them.

--
Brian Reynolds | "It's just like flying a spaceship.
reynolds@panix.com | You push some buttons and see
http://www.panix.com/~reynolds/ | what happens." -- Zapp Brannigan
NAR# 54438 |

larry127 wrote:

>
> (Was "MF3D Sleeves - gauging interest")
>
> Isn't this a problem?!!!

This is a huge problem.

> Chuck Holzner said:
>> The real problem with the sleeves is going to be the mounts... RMM
>> has not had the standard RMM mounts for quite some time now. The
>> last I heard , only the cropping mounts are available. "3Dstereo"
>> was selling the RMM size 50mmX50mm mounts in black only but,
>> although they are still listed as available on her site, she
>> doesn't seem to ship any. (At least I couldn't get any from her or
>> get her to answer e-mail as to why not.) Quentin at Quellen has
>> told me that his King Inn mounts are no longer available. That
>> leaves only the odd-ball size 3Dworld plastic mounts... We really
>> need a good supply of good mounts and then we can figure out what
>> sleeves to put on them.
>
> I suppose someone could approach 3DWorld about their interest in
> producing a cardboard mount, though I doubt they would pursue that
> as the plastic mounts are obviously an ongoing stream of income for
> them.

I doubt 3D World would ever make cardboard mounts.

> Is it possible that someone with familiarity with the industry,
> i.e. Berezin, George T, 3DConcepts, could "take the reins" and
> investigate developing a new production source of cardboard MF
> mounts (if, of course, all other production sources have dried up)?

I have discussed making MF cardboard mounts with some of the guys at
the Third Friday Stereo Dinners.

RMM (and I assume the others) used a traditional die cutting method.
You have to have a die made (expensive) and you need someone with a
press to run it for you (big production runs).

John Billingham suggested making a router jig and using a router to
cut a stack of cardboard at once. This would be OK for individuals
making small runs. I'm not sure what sort of bit you would need for
the router, or if you could get away with using a Dremel.

I've thought of using either a laser cutter, or a CNC machine/sign
cutter with a cutting head attached. I don't have access to either
type of machine, but there are now many places online offering various
cutting and fabrication services. Most of them deal with metal,
plastic, or wood. I'm not sure what to look for in a machine that can
handle paper. In order to deal with the fold, it would be nice if the
machine could score, or only partially cut the paper. I also don't
know where to source a good (acid-free, sturdy) paper. I think an
advantage to the cutting machine method would be that I could come up
with a file for the machine, place it online, and then people could go
to a local service bureau to have their own mounts made. You could
also modify the file for custom mounts (panorama, etc.).

This weekend is Maker Faire here in New York and I plan on keeping my
eyes open for possibilities.

--
Brian Reynolds | "It's just like flying a spaceship.
reynolds@panix.com | You push some buttons and see
http://www.panix.com/~reynolds/ | what happens." -- Zapp Brannigan
NAR# 54438 |

I wrote:

>
> I manage one of the MF3D folios. So far only one person has ever
> submitted a plastic mount to the folio. That slide did not fit in my
> 3D World focusing viewer (the latest version). I have not yet
> officially required cardboard mounts, but I don't look forward to
> anyone in the folio using them.

Oops. Bad editting. That last line should read:

I have not yet officially required cardboard mounts, but I don't
look forward to anyone in the folio using plastic mounts.

--
Brian Reynolds | "It's just like flying a spaceship.
reynolds@panix.com | You push some buttons and see
http://www.panix.com/~reynolds/ | what happens." -- Zapp Brannigan
NAR# 54438 |

--- In MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com, Brian Reynolds wrote:

> I have not yet officially required cardboard mounts, but I don't
> look forward to anyone in the folio using plastic mounts.

All I use is plastic mounts, so I guess I'll be folio deprived forever.
Steve

Brian hasn't said this, but we hold the "Stereo Dinners"
at a Mexican restaurant, and we look forward to the arrival
of MF folios, the main reason being that the MF mounts hold
a vastly larger quantity of guacamole and salsa when dipped
than those puny realist format mounts.

I'm not sure I'd care to bite into plastic, eh, Brian ?

Best Wishes,
John Billingham

>
>--- In MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com, Brian Reynolds wrote:
>> I have not yet officially required cardboard mounts, but I don't
>> look forward to anyone in the folio using plastic mounts.
>All I use is plastic mounts, so I guess I'll be folio deprived forever.
>Steve
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

coronet3d wrote:

> --- In MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com, Brian Reynolds wrote:
>> I have not yet officially required cardboard mounts, but I don't
>> look forward to anyone in the folio using plastic mounts.
> All I use is plastic mounts, so I guess I'll be folio deprived forever.
> Steve

Not necessarily, Steve.

I look after two medium format folios. I welcome both 80x132
cardboard and 80x140 plastic mounts. The only restrictions I
have are:
No glass
No modifications to anyone's mounts or sleeves without
their explicit permission.

I don't have openings right now, will announce here if there
is space. If anyone cares, they can get an idea of what
we've been doing in the folios by visiting
http://stereo.thurstons.us/folio/
Folio members can view and leave comments. The general
population may not.

--
John Thurston
Juneau Alaska
http://stereo.thurstons.us

The international medium format folio has at least half plastic mounts in its entries. There is life outside the US of A.

Sam

--- In MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com, "coronet3d" wrote:
>
> --- In MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com, Brian Reynolds wrote:
> > I have not yet officially required cardboard mounts, but I don't
> > look forward to anyone in the folio using plastic mounts.
> All I use is plastic mounts, so I guess I'll be folio deprived forever.
> Steve
>

--- In MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Holzner" <3D4me@...> wrote:

>

.... The

> problem I have had with the "Sam Smith" sleeves is that they
> did not fit all the mounts I was using. Particularly the
> Q-VU King Inn mounts. The sleeves are generally not high
> enough to get the mount in them without bending something.
> I found them a bit tight with some RMM mounts as well.
> Actually the sleeves seemed to have some variance in height
> and I had some that would take a Q-VU mount. In all
> fairness, there is some variance in the height of all the
> cardboard mounts too, likely due to moisture content when
> the mounts were cut and the resulting shrinkage or expansion
> in storage. If the "SS" sleeves were made a mm or two
> taller it would solve that problem.

Not necessarily. The problem with the Q-Vu is that the paper was flimsy. A taller sleeve made the slide position itself higher, as it naturally stays in the center of the folds. This in turn lets light in underneath, which can be a distraction for some types of viewers. The design was a compromise.

My sleeves were of a harder more durable material. That's what made them clearer and less prone to scratches. Of course the bad side was they were more expensive then the acetate ones. I thought paying 35 cents to protect a one-of-a-kind and one-chance-in-a-lifetime slide was a no-brainer. Market proved me wrong though.

Sam

> "3Dstereo" was selling the RMM size 50mmX50mm mounts in black only but, although they are still listed as available on her site, she doesn't seem to ship any. (At least I couldn't get any from her or get her to answer e-mail as to why not.)<

Well, at least I know 3Dstereo is still making the 50mm x 50mm mounts as my order for the black mounts arrived today.

larry127 wrote:

> Well, at least I know 3Dstereo is still making the 50mm x
> 50mm mounts as my order for the black mounts arrived today.

How long did this take from when you placed the order? How many
did you get?

John

I also got a pack sent to me last month, withing 7-10 days of ordering.

--- In MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com, "John Goodman" wrote:
>
> larry127 wrote:
>
> > Well, at least I know 3Dstereo is still making the 50mm x
> > 50mm mounts as my order for the black mounts arrived today.
>
> How long did this take from when you placed the order? How many
> did you get?
>
> John
>

> How long did this take from when you placed the order?

About 5 days.

>How many did you get?

I only ordered 1 pack of 50. I didn't want to make a large order until I knew they had them.

John

lattie_smart wrote:

> I also got a pack sent to me last month, withing 7-10 days of ordering.

You're blessed. :>) Others haven't been so fortunate. Perhaps
they were out of stock for a while.

John

They don't do a lot of communication, :-) but I got my order in just a slightly longer wait than normal.

It looks like Dalia and George are the only ones stocking a full line of slide mounting supplies, and I try to share my order between them to keep the supply line coming!

--- In MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com, "John Goodman" wrote:
>
> lattie_smart wrote:
>
> > I also got a pack sent to me last month, withing 7-10 days of ordering.
>
> You're blessed. :>) Others haven't been so fortunate. Perhaps
> they were out of stock for a while.
>
> John
>

lattie_smart wrote:

>
> They don't do a lot of communication, :-) but I got my order in just
> a slightly longer wait than normal.
>
> It looks like Dalia and George are the only ones stocking a full
> line of slide mounting supplies, and I try to share my order between
> them to keep the supply line coming!

I didn't know that George stocked cardboard mounts.

--
Brian Reynolds | "It's just like flying a spaceship.
reynolds@panix.com | You push some buttons and see
http://www.panix.com/~reynolds/ | what happens." -- Zapp Brannigan
NAR# 54438 |

He's had the plastic for sure...plus, I was including 35mm into the equation, all soon to be perhaps entered into the Endangered Species List..

--- In MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com, Brian Reynolds wrote:
>
> lattie_smart wrote:
> >
> > They don't do a lot of communication, :-) but I got my order in just
> > a slightly longer wait than normal.
> >
> > It looks like Dalia and George are the only ones stocking a full
> > line of slide mounting supplies, and I try to share my order between
> > them to keep the supply line coming!
>
> I didn't know that George stocked cardboard mounts.
>
> --
> Brian Reynolds | "It's just like flying a spaceship.
> reynolds@... | You push some buttons and see
> http://www.panix.com/~reynolds/ | what happens." -- Zapp Brannigan
> NAR# 54438 |
>