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Subject: Benginner's Questions
Date: 2013-07-03 12:03:15
From: zipppy78
Hey everyone,
I am brand new to the medium format style and had few questions about what it is. I guess the simplest way would be for to to do a bullet list of my questions.
1. What is medium format and how does it compare to traditional 35 mm format(I don't know know whether those are the right formats to compare)?
2. How do you make slides for these and what type of camera and film do you need for this format?
3.What are the best medium format viewers out there and do they accept different slide sizes (as an aside, I recently bought a 2q medium format viewer and am thinking of getting a kings inn viewer...also heard of a Saturn viewer but don't know what that is)?

Sorry for the abruptness and novice nature of the questions, but I really want to get into this and would really appreciate any help you guys could give.
Thanks.
Subject: Re: Benginner's Questions
Date: 2013-07-03 12:31:55
From: George Themelis
> I am brand new to the medium format style...

Welcome!

I have been mostly consumed with 35mm stereo (and now digital) but here are
some brief responses to your questions:

> 1. What is medium format and how does it compare to traditional 35 mm
> format(I don't know know whether those are the right formats to compare)?

Are you familiar with stereo photography in general? Medium format film has
a larger area, compared to 35mm format film. The resulting stereo slides
require less magnification so you see less grain and other issues. As a
rule, "bigger is better" when it comes to film. Also, the size of medium
format film is such that you can put two pieces of film next to each other
and they are separated by a distance about equal to the spacing of the eyes.
You need the least amount of magnification and you can use "simple" lenses
(not prismatic lenses or mirrors to reduce the spacing of the images as you
do with larger stereo print formats.) This makes it perfect for stereo.

As I said, I used to work with 35mm stereo (Realist format mainly) but had a
medium format viewer and slide around if I wanted to impress someone.
Medium format looks very impressive, thanks to the larger size of the images
on the film.

By the way, "film" and "format" are different things. "Format" refers to
the size of the image and how the film chips are positioned for viewing.
There are many 35mm stereo formats. We talk about 2x2x2 (in inches or
50x50mmx2, - two standard 35mm slide film mounts), Realist format (21x23mm
image area in a 41x101 mm mount), even View-master format (uses 35mm film
but has smaller image area). I imagine that there are more than one medium
stereo formats.

> 2. How do you make slides for these and what type of camera and film do
> you need for this format?

For stereo photography you need a medium format stereo camera and 120
(medium format) film. There are no new 3d cameras made today. The Chinese
company we are talking about (in regards to the mounts and viewers) stopped
making cameras, viewers and now mounts. But you can find these items in the
used market. There is also the Sputnik medium format stereo camera that you
can find in the used market and a number of older cameras.

> 3.What are the best medium format viewers out there and do they accept
> different slide sizes (as an aside, I recently bought a 2q medium format
> viewer and am thinking of getting a kings inn viewer...also heard of a
> Saturn viewer but don't know what that is)?

We were just talking about the Chinese viewers (by 3D World) that came in
the lighted and non-lighted variety. They both have achromatic lenses. The
Kings Inn viewer is an older viewer, you might find a used one. It is
plastic and uses single element lenses. The Saturn viewer was made by a
member of this list, you might find a used one. It has a wood body and
achromatic lenses. There were other viewers made at some time or another.
All these are discontinued products. There are no new viewers made today,
as far as I know, but a list member is working in making new viewers as we
speak.

George
Subject: Re: Benginner's Questions
Date: 2013-07-04 09:37:58
From: Bob Venezia
In addition to all of George's points I'll mention that you can certainly shoot medium format stereo images using 2 mf cameras triggered together.  Later today I hope to be triggering  2 cameras 40 feet apart. 

When using two cameras it is critical to have well matched lenses. You might think that 2 lenses labelled 50 mm from a high quality lens maker would just match, but you would be wrong :^)

One lens may actually be a 47 mm, another a 53. You need to test the lenses for a match. 

It is also possible to create medium format stereo images of still subjects using a single mf camera on a slide bar. I've been making some images like this lately. It will limit what you can shoot but it certainly solves the matched lenses problem!

Where are you located? If you are in the Seattle area I could show you what medium format is all about. For me, once I tasted it, there was no turning back. George, on the other hand, was apparently able to turn back! :^)

Bob Venezia
Seattle, Washington



Where are you located

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 3, 2013, at 11:31 AM, "George Themelis" <gathemelis@gmail.com> wrote:

> 2. How do you make slides for these and what type of camera and film do
> you need for this format?

For stereo photography you need a medium format stereo camera and 120
(medium format) film. There are no new 3d cameras made today. The Chinese
company we are talking about (in regards to the mounts and viewers) stopped
making cameras, viewers and now mounts. But you can find these items in the
used market. There is also the Sputnik medium format stereo camera that you
can find in the used market and a number of older cameras.

Subject: Re: Benginner's Questions
Date: 2013-07-04 11:10:07
From: Philip Steinman
Happy 4TH of July Everyone!

At 12:56 AM 7/4/2013, you wrote:
>For stereo photography you need a medium format stereo camera and 120
>(medium format) film. There are no new 3d cameras made today.

For stereo photography you just need a stereo pair of images,
easily done with any single 120MF camera lens with the cha-cha
shooting method. Take one picture, move the camera over horizontally
eye distance and take another picture. I've been using a
single Fuji GA645 camera for stereo for 10+ years.
Many here have seen my Fuji GA645 images in the MF folio.
(It helps if there is no movement between the cha-cha shots ;-)

Of course, a Sputnik stereo MF camera is a wonderfully
easy way to get into synchronized 3D shooting ;-),
as these cameras are readily available on ebay.

Cheers,
Philip

ps with any cha-cha shots, the cardboard mounts are idea
because they give you more room to mount away any discrepancies
of alignment, parallax, etc. The plastic mounts assume you have
a true stereo camera or took a perfectly separated stereo pair.
Subject: Re: Benginner's Questions
Date: 2013-07-04 11:53:35
From: Bob
On 04/07/2013 18:09, Philip Steinman wrote:
 

Happy 4TH of July Everyone!

Hmm. I suppose we (here in the UK) can celebrate getting rid of you lot in the colonies... :) :) :)

Just to keep this on topic, my first stereo MF shots were taken with a pair of elderly Hasselblads using "digital" synchronisation (I used a digit from each hand to release the two shutters as close together as I could manage :) ) Many of them turned out fine.

I then moved on to a Sputnik before getting a Rolleidoscop and finally one of the Chinese cameras... I still occasionally use all of them :)

Bob Aldridge
Subject: Re: Benginner's Questions
Date: 2013-07-05 13:56:18
From: John Thurston
On 7/3/2013 10:03 AM, zipppy78 wrote:
> Hey everyone,
> I am brand new to the medium format style and had few questions about what it is. I guess the simplest way would be for to to do a bullet list of my questions.
> 1. What is medium format and how does it compare to traditional 35 mm format

MF3D is what we call "Medium Format 3D". Everything else is
just something else :) But what is it and how does it compare?

I consider the MF3D name to represent anything _presented_
on pairs of slides (positive transparencies) whose largest
dimension is at least 35mm. It doesn't matter to me how the
image originated. If the images end up on large pieces of
film, I consider it MF3D. Others would require that the
image originate from medium format cameras, but I'm not such
a stickler.

The magic of MF3D is in the viewing. Large, positive, film
means it can be brightly backlit, and viewed with minimal
magnification. The larger film area and lower magnification
means that film-grain is less noticeable than in images
presented on "little" 35mm slides.

> 2. How do you make slides for these and what type of camera and film do you need for this format?

Since I define MF3D based on presentation, I'd say you can
use any camera or process you'd like to make your images.
But, because the best images are camera originals, the best
way to do it is with one or two medium format cameras.

Using one camera and doing cha-chas guarantees perfectly
matched focal lengths between the left and right images. For
this, any MF camera can be used. Use an Isolette, or
Rolleicord if that's what you can find.

Using a stereo MF camera will let you capture images with
motion in them. The most desirable camera is the 3D-World
TL120-1. It is big and heavy, but the lenses are wonderful.
Other choices are the Rolleidoscop, Heidoscop, and
Flektoscop of the 1920s and 30s. They are smaller and
lighter than the TL120-1, but come with vintage-camera
prices and problems. The Soviet-made Sputnik is where many
people start. The cameras are relatively inexpensive and
common on flea-bay (despite what the sellers may claim).
Though a fresh-from-russia Sputnik will require quite a bit
of work before it will perform at its best.

If you want to make color images on these cameras, your
choices are few. Kodak is no longer producing film, so you
had better like the colors from Fuji :)

If you want to make B&W images, Ilford makes some excellent,
low-grain, film.

> 3.What are the best medium format viewers out there and do they accept different slide sizes (as an aside, I recently bought a 2q medium format viewer and am thinking of getting a kings inn viewer...also heard of a Saturn viewer but don't know what that is)?

Viewers.... There are currently no commercially available
viewers. You will need to shop on the used-market. Watch for
3D-World illuminated viewers. The Saturn Viewer is a
wonderful choice. The King Inn viewer is ok if you replace
the very poor lenses. Sam Smith's Regal Viewer is great. All
of these are covered with the warning, "If you can find one."

We hope to see a new viewer soon from Larry Heyda. I know he
has been hard at work on it. I have high hopes :)
--
John Thurston
Juneau Alaska
http://stereo.thurstons.us
Subject: Re: Benginner's Questions
Date: 2013-07-05 15:05:05
From: JR
Some bits of MF (medium format) trivia that may help to understand what it is.  

There are certainly arguments about what constitutes the format, but in general it seems to cover those image sizes which are larger than conventional 35mm (small format, or SF) and smaller than the smallest large format image, LF usually considered to be 4 inch by 5 inch (about 102mm by 127mm) or larger.  MF usually includes the lantern slide sizes, most common of which is 3-1/4 inch by 4 inches (about 83mm by 102mm).  This is because before MF projectors became available, early MF images such as older Hasselblad frames were mounted in lantern slide mounts  (sandwiched in between glass with "slide mounting tape") for projection in lantern slide projectors.

In my opinion, almost any image within the above range may be considered to be MF, regardless of the form (which can include large sensor digital).

That said, the most common MF images are found on 120 film (older ones may have also been made on other, now defunct, film sizes like 220, 116, 616, etc.).   That film width resulted in one of the two image dimensions being about 6 cm.   As a result, we find the more common MF slide apertures to be slightly smaller than 6 (cm).  

This usually designates the height of the image, which often (but not always) is square.   Thus we see common sizes formerly designated as 6 x 4.5, 6 x 6, 6 x 7, 6 x 8, and 6 x 9, where the first number represents the height, and the second the width when used in landscape format (most common).  Today, the trend is to reverse the height-by-width numbers to width-by-height (from the digital video common usage).  Thus, for landscape orientation, these same sizes now would sometimes be stated as 4.5 x 6, 7 x 6, 8 x 6, and 9 x 6.   Portrait orientation would, of course, result in the reverse.  All of this applies directly to 2D images.   For 3D, the sizes will be half, the same, or double the above, depending on the particular way the stereo image pair is presented (split-frame, double frame, anaglyph, etc.)  Comprende?

JR


On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 12:55 PM, John Thurston <juneau3d@thurstons.us> wrote:
 

On 7/3/2013 10:03 AM, zipppy78 wrote:
> Hey everyone,
> I am brand new to the medium format style and had few questions about what it is. I guess the simplest way would be for to to do a bullet list of my questions.
> 1. What is medium format and how does it compare to traditional 35 mm format

MF3D is what we call "Medium Format 3D". Everything else is
just something else :) But what is it and how does it compare?

I consider the MF3D name to represent anything _presented_
on pairs of slides (positive transparencies) whose largest
dimension is at least 35mm. It doesn't matter to me how the
image originated. If the images end up on large pieces of
film, I consider it MF3D. Others would require that the
image originate from medium format cameras, but I'm not such
a stickler.

The magic of MF3D is in the viewing. Large, positive, film
means it can be brightly backlit, and viewed with minimal
magnification. The larger film area and lower magnification
means that film-grain is less noticeable than in images
presented on "little" 35mm slides.


> 2. How do you make slides for these and what type of camera and film do you need for this format?

Since I define MF3D based on presentation, I'd say you can
use any camera or process you'd like to make your images.
But, because the best images are camera originals, the best
way to do it is with one or two medium format cameras.

Using one camera and doing cha-chas guarantees perfectly
matched focal lengths between the left and right images. For
this, any MF camera can be used. Use an Isolette, or
Rolleicord if that's what you can find.

Using a stereo MF camera will let you capture images with
motion in them. The most desirable camera is the 3D-World
TL120-1. It is big and heavy, but the lenses are wonderful.
Other choices are the Rolleidoscop, Heidoscop, and
Flektoscop of the 1920s and 30s. They are smaller and
lighter than the TL120-1, but come with vintage-camera
prices and problems. The Soviet-made Sputnik is where many
people start. The cameras are relatively inexpensive and
common on flea-bay (despite what the sellers may claim).
Though a fresh-from-russia Sputnik will require quite a bit
of work before it will perform at its best.

If you want to make color images on these cameras, your
choices are few. Kodak is no longer producing film, so you
had better like the colors from Fuji :)

If you want to make B&W images, Ilford makes some excellent,
low-grain, film.


> 3.What are the best medium format viewers out there and do they accept different slide sizes (as an aside, I recently bought a 2q medium format viewer and am thinking of getting a kings inn viewer...also heard of a Saturn viewer but don't know what that is)?

Viewers.... There are currently no commercially available
viewers. You will need to shop on the used-market. Watch for
3D-World illuminated viewers. The Saturn Viewer is a
wonderful choice. The King Inn viewer is ok if you replace
the very poor lenses. Sam Smith's Regal Viewer is great. All
of these are covered with the warning, "If you can find one."

We hope to see a new viewer soon from Larry Heyda. I know he
has been hard at work on it. I have high hopes :)
--
John Thurston
Juneau Alaska
http://stereo.thurstons.us




--


Subject: Re: Benginner's Questions
Date: 2013-07-06 11:04:09
From: RodS
So, technically MF slides can be made with miniature (35mm or smaller) cameras, if the width or height is over 36mm? Swing-lens cameras (such as Widelux or Horizon), or fixed lens panoramic cameras (such as Hasselblad xpan or Holga ;0) with formats of 24x52 to 24x72+.
Also 127 film and glass plates of the same size were very popular in the past and would commonly produce images from 45x45 up to 45x60.

RS

--- In MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com, JR wrote:
>
> Some bits of MF (medium format) trivia that may help to understand what it
> is.
>
> There are certainly arguments about what constitutes the format, but in
> general it seems to cover those image sizes which are larger than
> conventional 35mm (small format, or SF) and smaller than the smallest large
> format image, LF usually considered to be 4 inch by 5 inch (about 102mm by
> 127mm) or larger.
Subject: Re: Benginner's Questions - 127 film clarification
Date: 2013-07-06 17:18:52
From: coronet3d
--- In MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com, "RodS" wrote:
>
> Also 127 film and glass plates of the same size were very popular in the past and would commonly produce images from 45x45 up to 45x60.
>
The standard 127 size was 45mm by 107mm. This was the standard established by Jules Richard's Verascope and sadly yielded to the 41x101 slide mount standard set by the Stereo Realist in the 1950s. I just bought 20 rolls of the last batch of Efke 127 film although Macophot claims to be able to roll 127 film and will be doing it again. BTW, if you like the Efke 100 film, Freestyle still has rolls in stock but the ISO 25&50 are sadly gone.
Steve
Subject: Re: Benginner's Questions
Date: 2013-07-06 23:06:24
From: John Thurston
On 7/6/2013 9:04 AM, RodS wrote:
> So, technically MF slides can be made with miniature (35mm or smaller) cameras, if the width or height is over 36mm? Swing-lens cameras (such as Widelux or Horizon), or fixed lens panoramic cameras (such as Hasselblad xpan or Holga ;0) with formats of 24x52 to 24x72+.

I consider those to be MF3D.
That doesn't mean others will agree with me!

John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska
Subject: Re: Benginner's Questions
Date: 2013-07-07 17:02:57
From: coronet3d
--- In MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com, John Thurston wrote:
>
> On 7/6/2013 9:04 AM, RodS wrote:
> > So, technically MF slides can be made with miniature (35mm or smaller) cameras, if the width or height is over 36mm? Swing-lens cameras (such as Widelux or Horizon), or fixed lens panoramic cameras (such as Hasselblad xpan or Holga ;0) with formats of 24x52 to 24x72+.
>
> I consider those to be MF3D.
> That doesn't mean others will agree with me!
>
At the very least you need an MF viewer to view them.
Steve
Subject: Re: Benginner's Questions
Date: 2013-07-09 22:15:38
From: Brian Reynolds
zipppy78 wrote:
>
> I am brand new to the medium format style and had few questions
> about what it is. I guess the simplest way would be for to to do a
> bullet list of my questions.

Others have answered you, but I'll throw my two cents in too.

> 1. What is medium format and how does it compare to traditional 35
> mm format(I don't know know whether those are the right formats to
> compare)?

Today Medium format (MF) is basically anything shot on 120 or 220 roll
film. This puts it between 135 (35mm) and the larger sheet film
sizes. (I consider 2-1/4 x 3-1/4 sheet film to be Large Format, but
not many people shoot that anymore.) There were other roll film
sizes, but they have mostly been discontinued, except for folks doing
custom hand rolls.

MF has been shot in several different formats. The classic 2-1/4 inch
square (metricized to 6x6cm) has a frame size of about 56x56mm. Other
common formats include 6x4.5, 6x7 ("ideal"), and 6x9. These formats
describe the nominal aspect ratio. The actual frame size varied based
on the camera manufacturers' whims.

As compared to 35mm, MF has a larger frame size, which gives it the
benefits of higher resolution, and better tonal gradations. When
combined with lower viewing magnification, and the ability to put two
frames close together for stereo viewing without divergence, you get
just about the perfect stereo format.

> 2. How do you make slides for these and what type of camera and film
> do you need for this format?

MF3D slides are shot on 120 or 220 slide film. Unfortunately Kodak
has discontinued their slide film. Fujifilm still makes some of their
slide films. Some folks have shot MF3D on B&W negative film that they
have had reversal processed to produce stunning B&W slides. B&W
reversal processing is not simply done with E-6 chemistry. A
different process is used.

You could also shoot B&W negatives and print them to make stereo
cards.

You can use any camera that shoots MF roll film to shoot MF3D. I
started with a pair of Lubitel 166 Universals (Soviet era plasitc 6x6
TLRs) on a flash bracket. I have also used various MF cameras on a
slide bar, a pair of Yashica Mat 124Gs on a custom bar, and a Sputnik
stereo camera.

For my money I think a Sputnik is the best bet out there. You'll have
to tune it up (flock the interior to remove glare, fix light leaks,
and make sure the lenses are in sync). I consider the 3-D World TL120
too expensive while it was still manufactured, and now there is no
real service option.

People tend to disregard them, but I have seen some interesting MF3D
slides take with the Holga stereo cameras. Just don't use the Holga
mounts as they are critically flawed.

> 3.What are the best medium format viewers out there and do they
> accept different slide sizes (as an aside, I recently bought a 2q
> medium format viewer and am thinking of getting a kings inn
> viewer...also heard of a Saturn viewer but don't know what that is)?

My favorite viewer was my Saturn Slide Viewer. It was designed by
Alan Lewis and sold by Rocky Mountain Memories. Unfortunately they
are no longer for sale, and mine is long gone.

I really like my Sam Smith designed folding steal the light viewer.
(I don't recall the name.) It is no longer for sale.

The Chinese 3D World focusing viewer is adequate. It is also no
longer for sale.

When I started in MF3D most folks built their own viewers. Robert
Thorpe has a page of viewer examples. Unfortunately many of the links
are broken.

<http://www.skep.com/3D/gallery.htm>

> Sorry for the abruptness and novice nature of the questions, but I
> really want to get into this and would really appreciate any help
> you guys could give.

You should check around to see if there is a stereo club in your
area. Having other folks to meet with can help motivate you, and
provide unusual solutions you may not have thought of.

--
Brian Reynolds | "It's just like flying a spaceship.
reynolds@panix.com | You push some buttons and see
http://www.panix.com/~reynolds/ | what happens." -- Zapp Brannigan
NAR# 54438 |
Subject: Holga Mounts
Date: 2013-07-12 14:10:25
From: coronet3d
Has anyone ever tried to complain to Holga about their mounts? The original 3D World mounts had issues and they redesigned them.
Steve
Subject: Re: Holga Mounts
Date: 2013-07-15 13:17:49
From: Brian Reynolds
Steve wrote:
>
> Has anyone ever tried to complain to Holga about their mounts? The
> original 3D World mounts had issues and they redesigned them.

I have spoken to someone in the Freestyle Photo booth at Photo Expo
Plus in NYC. I think it was last year. He seemed interested in
correcting any problems. I don't use the Holga stuff myself, so I
didn't keep in contact.

I'm sure they'll be there again this year.

--
Brian Reynolds | "It's just like flying a spaceship.
reynolds@panix.com | You push some buttons and see
http://www.panix.com/~reynolds/ | what happens." -- Zapp Brannigan
NAR# 54438 |