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Subject: Scanning and displaying on 4K screens
Date: 2014-05-26 03:17:11
From: blackiceuk

Hi


Anyone scanned in their slides and tried to display them on the new generation of 4K UltraHD tv screens?


I figure it could be done in stereo with motion as well.


Uploading contacts of my circus/freakshop scans which are currently on display in Brighton, UK once the Drum viewer is working again.


Mark 

Subject: Re: Scanning and displaying on 4K screens
Date: 2014-05-26 22:50:23
From: Don Lopp

 

Mark asked:

Anyone scanned in their slides and tried to display them on the new generation of 4K UltraHD tv screens?

I figure it could be done in stereo with motion as well."

Hello Mark:

   I fail to understand why displaying scans of color slide films should be expected to offer a quality resolution gain just because they are being presented  on a 4K Ultra HD TV Screen.   Is there an expectation that there will be a gain in on TV screen resolution?    I don't believe that this will be the case.  I am not aware that there is any slide film, (consumer level),  available in the World  today or yesterday, that would be improved , in regard to its resolution capabilities if it were presented on a 4K TV screen.  Our local PBS TV station presents localy produced videos via a 1080 HD,  TV, but their resolution does  not appear to be any sharper than when it was previouslypresented on a non HD capable TV screen.   My point is that HI Resolution color slide film, (consumer level), is not and has never been available in this World up till this day of  May 26, 2014. !    I am not aware of any, (consumer level) color slide film that is currently capable of resolving more than 56 line pairs per/mm,  of a scene taken in average, outdoor, light conditions !   Most color slide film manufacturers indicate high resolution capabilities for their their color slide films if they are used in very high contrast situations, which are,not seen during normal everyday photographic tours.   I suggest one should view  a color slide  film under 15X  or higher magnification, where the lack of high resolution  will be readily noticed.


The very best,

DON

olution




Subject: Re: Scanning and displaying on 4K screens
Date: 2014-05-27 17:30:45
From: Peter

Hi Don,

               I feel I must respond to inaccuracies about film here. Fuji Provia (100 ISO) is, at worst case in very flat light of contrast 1.6 to 1,  gives 60 lines / mm

              and at best with a contrast ratio of 1000 to 1, gives a staggering 140 lines / mm resolve. Now on 60mm film viewed with a decent eyepiece, an image shot on an average of 110 lines/mm

             gives 6600 lines on the vertical, which leaves any 4K image for dead at 2160 lines. I have viewed stereo pairs on 2 iPad 3's set up as a Wheatstone viewer, these being half way between

            Fulll HD and Super HD, and these pale when compared to viewing a Provia MF pair in a 3D World Viewer, which isn't even the best of viewers.

 

            The obvious point of viewing on a 4K TV is about showing your images in the "best possible" projection technique to a group, in a slide show and probably music as well.

            Personally, I can't wait till 4K comes down in price as well. One at a time to each person is a painful way to show a group your images.

 

            Regards, Peter

 

 

From: MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 27 May 2014 2:48 PM
To: MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MF3D-group] Scanning and displaying on 4K screens

 

 

 

 

Mark asked:

Anyone scanned in their slides and tried to display them on the new generation of 4K UltraHD tv screens?

I figure it could be done in stereo with motion as well."

Hello Mark:

   I fail to understand why displaying scans of color slide films should be expected to offer a quality resolution gain just because they are being presented  on a 4K Ultra HD TV Screen.   Is there an expectation that there will be a gain in on TV screen resolution?    I don't believe that this will be the case.  I am not aware that there is any slide film, (consumer level),  available in the World  today or yesterday, that would be improved , in regard to its resolution capabilities if it were presented on a 4K TV screen.  Our local PBS TV station presents localy produced videos via a 1080 HD,  TV, but their resolution does  not appear to be any sharper than when it was previouslypresented on a non HD capable TV screen.   My point is that HI Resolution color slide film, (consumer level), is not and has never been available in this World up till this day of  May 26, 2014. !    I am not aware of any, (consumer level) color slide film that is currently capable of resolving more than 56 line pairs per/mm,  of a scene taken in average, outdoor, light conditions !   Most color slide film manufacturers indicate high resolution capabilities for their their color slide films if they are used in very high contrast situations, which are,not seen during normal everyday photographic tours.   I suggest one should view  a color slide  film under 15X  or higher magnification, where the lack of high resolution  will be readily noticed.


The very best,

DON


olution

 

 

 

Subject: Re: Scanning and displaying on 4K screens
Date: 2014-05-27 18:12:55
From: John Thurston
On 5/27/2014 3:30 PM, 'Peter' p.tho1181@bigpond.com
[MF3D-group] wrote:
- snip -
>
> Personally, I can't wait till 4K comes down in price as well.
> One at a time to each person is a painful way to show a group your images.

Ouch! That's a pretty harsh statement, Peter.

I don't suggest that it meets everyone's needs, but for a
group of six to eight, I find a hand-viewer in a circle to
be an _excellent_ experience. There's give and take. There's
discussion and exploration. Each person has their own time
with the image, can explore the details they like, and can
pass it on when they've had enough.

MF3D is a slow discipline. Sharing and discussing the images
in a slow way is consistent with the medium. I can imagine
my MF3D images being scanned and presented on a screen as a
timed slide/wipe/Ken-Burns show and _that_ seems painful to me.
--
John Thurston
Juneau Alaska
http://stereo.thurstons.us
Subject: Re: Scanning and displaying on 4K screens
Date: 2014-05-28 20:03:56
From: coronet3d


I'm all for breaking the bank to buy a pair of 4K projectors, but there were MF projectors made that can project 6x6 slides.  The Hasselblad projectors still command big bucks but the Rollei and Kinderman projectors have fallen substantially in price.

Steve

Subject: Re: Scanning and displaying on 4K screens
Date: 2014-05-29 01:00:26
From: Don Lopp
Hello Peter,

    As best I can tell, your email regarding my recent email concerning film resolution is not based on factual information!     Examples of worthless information;
"gives 60 lines/mm",  "an average of lines/mm", "a staggering 140 lines/mm resolve".   As best as I can tell, resolution
 characteristics of film are measured in,"line pairs/ per mm"- NOT  in "lines/mm", as you, and or Fuji, have alleged.   Google may be able to help you understand what I have just stated, regarding line 'pairs' /mm, plus show you a pictures of the  various resolution charts

    You mentioned the medium format 3D World, (MF ), slide viewer.   Its viewer lenses have a fl of 80mm and It provides a magnification of only 3.2X (254mm/80mm = 3.2X.   The visual acuity of the human eye is considered to be, 6 or 7 line pairs/mm.   Theoretically (3.2X x7=22 lp/mm).    My test results suggest that the visual acuity of of the  tests out at about 28 line pairs /mm or less in a typical MF viewer.   My resolution tests of Fuji Provia 100 film indicate that resolution charts,  with a contrast ratio of 10:1, suggest the maximum resolution produced is about  28 lp/mm in the central area of the slide.    In my earlier email, I suggested that proof of what I allege, concerning the ridiculous claims of high resolution of Provia F-100  can be successfully challenged by looking at the test film with a 15X+  loupe.   I have been testing the resolution capabilities of film since 1957.    I use the high contrast charts which have a contrast  of about 10:1 The NBS resolution charts were first made available in 1956.

Regarding quality experiences when  viewing 3D, I have not seen any digital 3D presentations that came close to being as good as viewing quality MF slides in a quality MF viewer.   Several months ago, at our monthly Puget Sound Stereo Camera Club meeting, I got to see one of the best 3D slides I have ever seen, shot by Bob Venezia,  when viewed in a quality MF viewer.   When projected  on our large digital projection screen, It was, in my opinion, just a another pretty good 3D slide, minus the wow factor that it had when viewed in a quality MF viewer.   I do not believe that increasing the slides resolution, and or projecting it on a larger screen,  would have been able to improve its projection quality.   Regarding quality MF viewers, the  only game in town, is Larrys' Heydascope, with its viewer immersion design, which shields the eyes from much of the bothersome external  lights.   The Regal MF viewer,  made by Sam Smith of Alberta, Canada, was the best MF viewer in its time, but it has been out of production for several  years.

 IMO, the secret as to why MF 3D slides look so good is, often offering a wow factor is due to the  the high quality photographers, who know how  to use moderately high resolution film, and present their 3D views in relatively low, (3.2X)  magnification quality viewers.

You wrote; (1), "gives 6600 lines on the vertical which leaves any 4K image for dead at 2160 lines".   I don't understand what the relation ship is between6600 lines and 2160 lines.    plus, (2),"I have viewed stereo pairs on 2IPad3' set up as a Wheatstone viewer,  these being halfway between."  Was your Wheatstone  set up of any value?    I make no claims to having any significant knowledge concerning digital photography.  

    I  believe that digital 3D will, eventually, be able to offer a quality viewing experience, but not in my lifetime !  I doubt that
the future will involve bigger and or higher resolution screens such as 8K, 16K etc will be part of the solution towards higher quality digital 3D.
         
    I remember hearing of  [GIGO],    Garbage In Garbage Out, about 30 years ago.   i believe that the words still apply.


The very best,

DON



degree of magnification
Subject: Re: Scanning and displaying on 4K screens
Date: 2014-05-31 18:56:28
From: Don Lopp

 
The day before yesterday I wrote: 
 " I  believe that digital 3D will, eventually, be able to offer a quality viewing experience, but not in my lifetime !  I doubt that the future will involve bigger and or higher resolution screens such as 8K, 16K etc will be part of the solution towards higher quality digital 3D......"
             
 My guess is that the future of digital viewing of 3D, will be to viewing, highly magnified OLED slides, or the  digital projection of videos. I did say that I did believe that Medium format  3D was superior to any projected 3D slides that I have ever seen, whether projected on a screen or on a TV, but I forgot to mention that I have seen digital 3D videos, that do present a reasonable form of 3D viewing.  Courtesy of, Don Munsil, president of our Puget Sound Stereo Camera Club, I have seen many digitally projected 3D videos, including cartoons from Disney, foreign videos, plus several first class videos from John Hart (CO.) I attribute the high quality of these videos is due to the profesionalism of the video producers. I do not understand the basis for anyone to expect that by increasing the resolution of a TV presentation, to 4K will convert a mediocre video into being a  significantly improved video.  I have seen 4K TV, (not 3D), at Fry's-and was not impressed as to what 4K offered on the TV.  From what I saw, at 4K, a blured image was still a blured image..

Regards,
DON


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degree of magnification