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Subject: Sputnik flocking
Date: 2015-07-13 16:03:16
From: bob_karambelas

I started noticing black things along the edges and in the corners of my Sputnik images, , and realized that the flocking that had been applied to the inside was coming loose, just enough to let it curl up 1/8" or so and into the frame.  It's still well-attached somewhere, but near the film plane, nothing is holding it down flat.


The simple solution seems to be running some liquid adhesive in there, I'm wondering if anybody has any suggestions what would be best to use. I guess CA will work, but maybe there's something better.


The flocking was applied by the previous owner, so I don't know what was used originally.

Subject: Re: Sputnik flocking
Date: 2015-07-13 16:27:52
From: John Thurston
On 7/13/2015 2:03 PM, karambelas@gmail.com [MF3D-group] wrote:
> I started noticing black things along the edges and in the corners of my Sputnik images, , and realized that the flocking that had been applied to the inside was coming loose, just enough to let it curl up 1/8" or so and into the frame. It's still well-attached somewhere, but near the film plane, nothing is holding it down flat.
>
> The simple solution seems to be running some liquid adhesive in there, I'm wondering if anybody has any suggestions what would be best to use. I guess CA will work, but maybe there's something better.

If by "CA" you mean Cyanoacrylate or "super glue", I
recommend against it.
A) you don't know what is in that flocking paper
B) I hate dealing with glass and plastic which has been
fogged by its fumes

I suggest looking at some latex adhesives which are commonly
used in the scrap-booking/crafts activities. I've had good
results with a product from Zig
> http://www.eksuccessbrands.com/ektools/Products/ZIG_2-Way_Glue_Pen__Chisel_Tip_55-00012.htm
It's easy to work with and doesn't migrate much.

Alternatively, I like 3M double-stick tape.
> http://www.scotchbrand.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/ScotchBrand/Scotch/Products/Catalog/~/Scotch-Double-Sided-Tape-Dispensered-Rolls?N=4335+7578040+3294603620&rt=rud
I apply it in the general location I need it, and use an
X-Acto knife to trim anything which later sticks out.

> The flocking was applied by the previous owner, so I don't know what was used originally.

If you think the flocking is all going to fall out, you may
be better off reinstalling all of it. It is possible that
all of the adhesive is dried out and a gentle nudge will
knock it loose. If you go this route, look at 3M's
"Positional Mounting Adhesive" (PMA 568). It is applied to
the back of your flocking material which can then be
installed in your camera.


--
John Thurston
Juneau Alaska
http://stereo.thurstons.us
Subject: Re: Sputnik flocking
Date: 2015-07-13 17:57:11
From: bob_karambelas
Thanks, I didn't think CA would be a good idea, but it was all I could think of.  

The double-stick tape might be worth a try, and I'll check out the Zig. I have some 568 PMA, but there might not be any good way to apply it in that spot.

I have to say, whoever tweaked this camera did a good job.  I used to have a TL-120 but this is clearly sharper and has better contrast.
Subject: Re: Sputnik flocking
Date: 2015-07-13 18:21:25
From: John Thurston
On 7/13/2015 3:57 PM, karambelas@gmail.com [MF3D-group] wrote:
> The double-stick tape might be worth a try, and I'll check out the Zig. I have some 568 PMA, but there might not be any good way to apply it in that spot.

I can't think of any neat way to use the PMA unless you are
going to remove and replace entire pieces.

Please let us know now it works out.

> I have to say, whoever tweaked this camera did a good job. I used to have a TL-120 but this is clearly sharper and has better contrast.

Now, I've seen some very good Sputnik images. I've even seen
some _great_ Sputnik images. But I've never seen any which
_surpassed_ the results of the Tl120-1 at f/16. This must be
one helluva Sputnik! Are you able to share its provenance
with us?

My Sputnik came to me around 2001 from Alan Hunter of
California. It was an excellent example with flocking and
baffles. I blacked the lens edges, adjusted and damped the
focus, added hoods, and got very good images from it. In
2013, it went to Ray Dillard of Toronto (with its Lopp
Finder). A camera is a tool and I'm pleased it continues to
do its job.

--
John Thurston
Juneau Alaska
http://stereo.thurstons.us
Subject: Re: Sputnik flocking
Date: 2015-07-13 20:48:27
From: Don Lopp
Hello Karambelas, 

I am surprised, as out of the many Sputniks, that I have tested, I have never seen a Sputnik that was 'remotely' as sharp in the corners, when compared to the TL-120 lenses !

Regards,

DON

On 7/13/2015 4:57 PM, karambelas@gmail.com [MF3D-group] wrote:
 

Thanks, I didn't think CA would be a good idea, but it was all I could think of.  


The double-stick tape might be worth a try, and I'll check out the Zig. I have some 568 PMA, but there might not be any good way to apply it in that spot.

I have to say, whoever tweaked this camera did a good job.  I used to have a TL-120 but this is clearly sharper and has better contrast.

Subject: Re: Sputnik flocking
Date: 2015-07-13 21:23:29
From: Timo Puhakka
I had such a Sputnik once. I had the shutters repaired and the speeds matched. I flocked the insides and light sealed the doors with top and bottom plates. It took fabulous images which rivaled my TL120, but since I didn't need 2 MF cameras, I ebayed it. Now I am on my 4th replacement Sputnik and none are as good as the one I sold all those years ago. I have gotten better at flocking and light leak sealing though.

Timo

On 13-Jul-15, at 7:57 PM, karambelas@gmail.com [MF3D-group] wrote:

 

Thanks, I didn't think CA would be a good idea, but it was all I could think of.  


The double-stick tape might be worth a try, and I'll check out the Zig. I have some 568 PMA, but there might not be any good way to apply it in that spot.

I have to say, whoever tweaked this camera did a good job.  I used to have a TL-120 but this is clearly sharper and has better contrast.


Subject: Re: Sputnik flocking
Date: 2015-07-13 21:31:04
From: bob_karambelas
Somewhere on the web, maybe it was your page, I saw a list of things you need to do to fix a Sputnik... flocking and blacken the lens edges, etc.  I got mine from eBay, and the seller listed all those things had been done.  Somebody from Georgia, I think. If it was somebody on this list, thanks.

My TL-120 was very prone to flare, and I usually didn't use the hoods because of the way they froze the focusing. Even with the hoods, it was useless with strong backlight. Not that the Sputnik is great with backlight, but I don't get the spurious blue streaks that I'd get with the TL-120. But even with perfect lighting, and I'm as surprised as anybody, the Sputnik pics seem better. A friend has one that's better than mine, but he worked on it a lot.


---In MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

Now, I've seen some very good Sputnik images. I've even seen 
some _great_ Sputnik images. But I've never seen any which
_surpassed_ the results of the Tl120-1 at f/16. This must be
one helluva Sputnik! Are you able to share its provenance
with us?

My Sputnik came to me around 2001 from Alan Hunter of
California. It was an excellent example with flocking and
baffles. I blacked the lens edges, adjusted and damped the
focus, added hoods, and got very good images from it. In
2013, it went to Ray Dillard of Toronto (with its Lopp
Finder). A camera is a tool and I'm pleased it continues to
do its job.

--
John Thurston
Juneau Alaska
http://stereo.thurstons.us
Subject: Re: Sputnik flocking
Date: 2015-07-14 07:13:40
From: jamesbharp
My experience has been that a well tuned Sputnik stopped down to f22 or smaller and focused at 15 feet (I believe that's the hyperfocal distance that keeps infinity sharp) can take  gorgeous sharp images, although a close look at the edges might reveal some minor geometric aberrations.   

On the other hand if you want to take a portrait at five feet and use f11 so that your diffused fill-flash lights the subject well the TL-120 blows the Sputnik out of the water.

Jim Harp
Subject: Re: Sputnik flocking
Date: 2015-07-14 09:17:16
From: coronet3d

What the flash sync speed of the TL120?

Steve

Subject: Re: Sputnik flocking
Date: 2015-07-14 10:24:16
From: bob_karambelas
I can only compare my own Sputnik to my own TL-120, I can't claim to have done careful comparisons, and my focusing with both cameras is inconsistent. So it's mostly a subjective comparison, but side by side my sharpest images seem to be from the Sputnik.  Come to think of it, the 1/60 flash synch on the TL might have contributed to softness in mixed-light situations. The flare was what bothered me most, perhaps that could have been mitigated with some tweaking.
Subject: Re: Sputnik flocking
Date: 2015-07-14 11:37:38
From: coronet3d

3-element lenses have a tendency to be contrasty - that's why I used to use low contrast film in my Sputnik (e.g. Astia, T-Max).  Greater contrast, I'm told, can make an image "appear" sharper while tests with a chart might contradict that assessment.

Steve

Subject: Re: Sputnik flocking
Date: 2015-07-14 14:17:19
From: bob_karambelas
Seems to be true. That's why I like high contrast for 3D. ;)  The ILEX Realists are another camera that have high contrast and appear very sharp, they also have simple lenses if I recall.


---In MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com, wrote :


Greater contrast, I'm told, can make an image "appear" sharper while tests with a chart might contradict that assessment.

Steve

Subject: TL120 flash synch [was: Sputnik flocking]
Date: 2015-07-14 14:45:24
From: John Thurston
On 7/14/2015 7:17 AM, coronet3d@yahoo.com [MF3D-group] wrote:
> What the flash sync speed of the TL120?

Depending on the version of the camera, the marked sync speed was 1/30,
or 1/60. I don't think the shutters were any different among the models,
only the marking on the dial.

My notes on the subject say, "While the camera is marked with a
synch-speed of 1/60th, I have successfully used 1/125th and suspect
1/250th would work at f/16 and f/22."

I forget how I tested this.... did I use film? did I just open the back
and observe the flash pattern? Sorry, I don't recall.
--
John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska
Subject: Re: Sputnik flocking
Date: 2015-07-14 14:59:51
From: John Thurston
On 7/13/2015 7:31 PM, karambelas@gmail.com [MF3D-group] wrote:
...
>
> My TL-120 was very prone to flare, and I usually didn't use the hoods
> because of the way they froze the focusing.

I agree that the three-square hood 3D-World offered was junk. I think I
still have one in a drawer some where. I wonder why I'm keeping it.
I use a pair of screw-on hoods. I generally transport my camera to the
field with its stock one-piece lens cap. The camera travels in a canvas
drawstring bag inside my pack.

When I decide where I'm going to work, I install a pair of hoods with
their own snap-on caps and put another snap-on cap on the finder lens. I
can then un-cap the finder to try out compositions without exposing my
taking lenses to salt, sand, and rain. The only difficulty is
remembering to uncap the taking lenses prior to tripping the shutter!
This happens less now that I have them connected to each other by a long
yellow string. If that string isn't hanging from the tripod, I'm not
ready to strip the shutter.

I do recall doing some sleuthing into flare in my TL120-1s. As I recall,
it was present in the left lens with strong backlighting. I'd have to
check my notes, but I think I decided that it was a non-issue with the
hoods and apertures I was going to be using.

But we have strayed far from your original question. Good luck with the
flocking repair. Please report back on your success so we'll have
something in the archives for the next person.

--
John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska
Subject: Re: TL120 flash synch [was: Sputnik flocking]
Date: 2015-07-15 08:03:49
From: jamesbharp
I've never had a problem synching flash at 1/125 on my TL-120.  I consider this to be one the TL-120's best (if undocumented) features as it makes possible the use of fill-flash in so many situations.

With regards to the Mamiya 7s - I'm curious why an MF3D shooter wouldn't be more interested in twinning Mamiya 6s.   I don't know of any slide mounts or viewers designed for 6X7s, and I find I have plenty of cropping flexibility mounting 6X6s in standard cardboard mounts.   

With their square format the Mamiya 6s can be mounted top to bottom as well as side to side.   From what I've read the three available lenses - 50mm, 75mm and 150mm are all spectacular.    Based on current ebay prices a Mamiya 6 twin rig with 50mm and 150mm lenses would cost between $3,000 and $4,000.

Which is to say for now I'll stick with the twin Mamiya C220 rig I was able to cobble together for $500.

Jim Harp
Subject: Mamiya 7 twin [was: TL120 flash synch]
Date: 2015-07-15 10:18:28
From: John Thurston
On 7/15/2015 6:03 AM, jamesbharp@verizon.net [MF3D-group] wrote:

> With regards to the Mamiya 7s - I'm curious why an MF3D shooter wouldn't be more interested in twinning Mamiya 6s. I don't know of any slide mounts or viewers designed for 6X7s, and I find I have plenty of cropping flexibility mounting 6X6s in standard cardboard mounts.

I'm neither the builder or the owner so my answers are
speculation. . .
A) The The Mamiya 7s were still in production while the 6s
were old-news. It could be built with new bodies.
B) The artist wanted wide images rather than square.

The images I've seen from this camera in Portland were
actually mounted in Wess mounts and projected through
Goetschmann projectors. I've never seen any images from this
camera in a hand viewer.

From my notes in 2004 (as related to me by the artist):
> "The show was shot with my 6x7cm MF stereo camera with 43mm lenses. The film was mounted in Wess 701 slide mounts which are cropped to a 2.2:1 aspect ratio (67.5x31mm). I projected with the Goetschmann projectors from 56 feet with 250mm lenses on the 7x21 foot NSA screen, so I filled about 73% of the screen. The projectors have 6000 lumens for 6x7 slides, so the images were reasonably bright."

--
John Thurston
Juneau Alaska
http://stereo.thurstons.us
Subject: Re: Sputnik flocking
Date: 2015-07-17 00:19:27
From: Don Lopp
Hi Steve,

It is a fact that, Greater contrast .....can make an image "appear" sharper while tests with a chart might contradict that assessment".  Try increasing the contrast of a digital image, you will not increase the resolution, the resolution will go down. When photographing resolution test charts, contrasty lenses provide lower resolution. Triplet lenses may a contrasty image, but I have never seen a triplet lens that can offer high resolution in the corner. Triplets  also provide less illumination in the corners,  than do 4 element Tessar style lenses.

Best Regards,

DON

On 7/14/2015 10:37 AM, coronet3d@yahoo.com [MF3D-group] wrote:
 

3-element lenses have a tendency to be contrasty - that's why I used to use low contrast film in my Sputnik (e.g. Astia, T-Max).  Greater contrast, I'm told, can make an image "appear" sharper while tests with a chart might contradict that assessment.

Steve


Subject: Re: Sputnik flocking
Date: 2015-11-19 19:49:38
From: bob_karambelas
Four months later, I finally got around to fixing this, and I can report that the Zig adhesive seemed to work pretty well. Thanks for the suggestion.


---In MF3D-group@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

On 7/13/2015 2:03 PM, karambelas@... [MF3D-group] wrote:
>> I started noticing black things along the edges and in the corners of my Sputnik images, , and realized that the flocking that had been applied to the inside was coming loose, just enough to let it curl up 1/8" or so and into the frame. It's still well-attached somewhere, but near the film plane, nothing is holding it down flat.The simple solution seems to be running some liquid adhesive in there, I'm wondering if anybody has any suggestions what would be best to use.<<

I suggest looking at some latex adhesives which are commonly
used in the scrap-booking/crafts activities. I've had good
results with a product from Zig
> http://www.eksuccessbrands.com/ektools/Products/ZIG_2-Way_Glue_Pen__Chisel_Tip_55-00012.htm
It's easy to work with and doesn't migrate much.