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Subject: Mamiya 645 vs Mamiya 6
Date: 2016-03-28 14:43:04
From: gfpguy1
I currently have a couple of TL-120 and like them a lot, but am thinking about wider fields of view (mine are the 80 mm if I recall) and hyperstereo. The Mamiya 6 with interchangeable 50, 75, or 150 mm lenses was highly regarded http://www.kenrockwell.com/mamiya/6.htm
and goes for 800-1500 USD on EBay (wide angle lenses costing more). The Mamiya 645 can be had for 200-400. The advantage of these is for hyperstereo, where the cameras can be separated on tripods, images composed, then fired approximately at the same time using pneumatic shutter releases cables or similar.
Does anyone have experience with these?
Subject: Re: Mamiya 645 vs Mamiya 6
Date: 2016-03-29 12:28:02
From: John Thurston
On 3/28/2016 12:43 PM, gfpguy1@gmail.com [MF3D-group] wrote:
> I currently have a couple of TL-120 and like them a
> lot, but am thinking about wider fields of view (mine
> are the 80 mm if I recall)

Yep. 80mm are the stock lenses.

> and hyperstereo.

Ahhh. That rules out turning one of your TL120-1 models into
a TL120-55. Doing so would get you the wide angle, but would
preclude hyper stereos.

> The Mamiya 6 with interchangeable 50, 75, or 150 mm
> lenses was highly regarded ... and goes for 800-1500 USD
> on EBay (wide angle lenses costing more).

Excellent camera, but you are paying for portability. My
anecdotal conversations with users indicate the Mamiya 7 was
a slightly more robust camera (than the 6). I think it all
depends on how cheaply you can lay your hands on the bodies.

Going with a pair of 6 or 7 bodies limits you to hyper
stereo spacing. But since hyper is what you're after, it is
good fit.

> The Mamiya 645 can be had for 200-400. The advantage of
> these is for hyperstereo, where the cameras can be
> separated on tripods, images composed, then fired
> approximately at the same time using pneumatic shutter
> releases cables or similar.

Philip Steinman has frequently offered hyper cha-cha images
in the folio. As I recall, he uses a Fuji GA-645W. Maybe he
has also tried the Mamiya 645 offerings. Philip?

--
John Thurston
Juneau Alaska
http://stereo.thurstons.us
Subject: Re: Mamiya 645 vs Mamiya 6
Date: 2016-03-29 13:28:00
From: gfpguy1
Minolta RB67 pro seems much more affordable but I've no idea about optics

Re 50 mm making less suitable for hyper ... Is that in reference to fact one camera would be stock the other 50mm?
Subject: Re: Mamiya 645 vs Mamiya 6
Date: 2016-03-29 13:38:56
From: John Thurston
On 3/29/2016 11:27 AM, gfpguy1@gmail.com [MF3D-group] wrote:
- snip -
> Re 50 mm making less suitable for hyper ... Is that in reference to fact one camera would be stock the other 50mm?

The TL120-55 is a TL120-1 converted to use Mamiya 55mm f/4
lenses. Being a single camera, you aren't going to get hyper
stereos from it unless you cha-cha. And if your goal is
hyper stereo, and you're willing to do cha-cha, there are
much less complicated and less expensive ways to accomplish
that.

The TL120-55 is suitable for someone who wants wide angle
images short from a normal stereo base.
--
John Thurston
Juneau Alaska
http://stereo.thurstons.us
Subject: Re: Mamiya 645 vs Mamiya 6
Date: 2016-03-29 14:06:00
From: gfpguy1
Sounds nice. Do you know where to get a modified lens board?
Subject: Re: Mamiya 645 vs Mamiya 6
Date: 2016-03-29 14:27:58
From: gfpguy1
The Mamiya 55 mm lenses....would those be the ones that are compatible with RB67?
Subject: Re: Mamiya 645 vs Mamiya 6
Date: 2016-03-29 14:47:36
From: John Thurston
On 3/29/2016 12:06 PM, gfpguy1@gmail.com [MF3D-group] wrote:
> Sounds nice. Do you know where to get a modified lens board?

Errrmm. yeah, I do.

I had eight (if I recall correctly) made a few years ago. I
sold 'em at cost to list-members. Look in the archives early
in 2008 for more discussion. They are machined from
aluminum, and designed to handle Mamiya 55mm f/4.0 TLR
lenses. These are specifically the _TLR_ lenses from the
C220 and C330 and none other.

The TL120-55 is a fixed focus camera, suitable for use at
f/16 and f/22, for distances 3m to infinity. See discussions
in '08 for other distance options. It does _not_ work with
the TL120-1 metering system. It _does_ use the TL120-1
shutter. You _may_ choose to couple the apertures, but I
recommend using them un-linked.

My renderings from February, 2008 are still out there:
http://www.alaska.net/~thurston/images/backofboard.gif
http://www.alaska.net/~thurston/images/frontofboard.gif

My TL120-55 after fitting the lens board, but before fitting
any lenses:
http://www.alaska.net/~thurston/images/IMG_3689.JPG

Another builder's TL120-55 with a painted board.
http://www.alaska.net/~thurston/images/55mmDoneKK.JPG
(I think I recall whose camera this is, but will refrain
from offering credit for fear of getting it wrong. Feel free
to claim this beauty as yours.)
Mine looks a bit different because I chose to leave my lens
board in raw aluminum, and I stripped the shutter mechanisms
and levers from the lenses.

A few of the TL120-55 cameras have traded hands over the
years. If you asked here, someone may be done with theirs.

If you'd like to build your own, I have exactly one lens
board left. It is available for sale, $150+postage. I also
have a couple of lenses left, but if you want to build a
TL120-55, you should expect to also shop flea-bay for
another set. If you want to discuss a package price, contact
me off-list.

The TL120-55 is a nice choice if:
You have a donor TL120-1
Want wide-angle and normal stereo base
have some camera hacking skills

If you want a low-risk system, or hyper stereo spacing, get
a pair of cameras instead.
--
John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska
Subject: Mamiya C220s
Date: 2016-03-30 05:29:21
From: jamesbharp
One thing to keep in mind if you're looking to twin a camera like the Mamiya 6 is that you might have to go through a few lenses to get a pair that are acceptably matched.   This can run into thousands of dollars with those lenses, even in today's bargain-basement used market.

An inexpensive (and less portable) alternative to the Mamiya 6 is a pair of the Mamiya C series TLRs.   After researching this a bit I settled on the C220s.   My recollection is that the C330s had more plastic parts and some additional film handling features that I thought could cause reliability issues.  

The C220s are built like tanks (A pair of them is almost as heavy as a small Panzer) and I've never had any technical issues with them.  The shutters and apertures are built into the lenses.   I mainly use the 135mm lenses, I was able to get a close match after buying three of them.   I also have a pair of 55 mm wide angle lenses, but I much prefer the surreal look the tele 135s give me with hypers.

I use an adjustable twin cable release.   I calibrate it by very slowly depressing the release and adjusting one cable's length until the shutters fire simultaneously now matter how slowly I go.  I consistently get excellent synchronization at 1/125 which is the fastest speed I generally use.

Shopping on eBay I was able to put together a pair of C220s with 135mm lenses for about $500.

Jim Harp
Subject: Re: Mamiya C220s
Date: 2016-03-30 06:46:04
From: gfpguy1
Jim
This is helpful! It's always good to hear first hand, and since you've had great images, even better! I was worried alright about matching lenses. As you say, cost doesn't guarantee tighter matching. I heard for 3D world they took a large run and binned them by relative magnification and paired off close matches. Different TL120 cameras don't match but their pairs do within each camera.
Subject: Re: Mamiya 645 vs Mamiya 6
Date: 2016-03-30 19:24:54
From: stereomirrors
Yes that's my TL120-55 with a painted board, I'm still using it 8 years later,its gives me the most realistic outdoor looking pictures of any of my rigs, with the 63mm lens separation, 55mm taking lenses and viewing with 75mm lenses. The stock 80mm lenses just create compression (squash) when you start seeing far scenes in your pictures,along with DOF issues. The board puts the focus at 11.75 ft on my rig, Sunny 16 and 100 speed film you get great resolution , I shoot a lot of fast swimmers in competition , so I use 1/500 400 speed film, and that's a strong point of this setup , perfect shutter synchronization, that's a big issue, even today with digital.
Kevin

Subject: Re: Mamiya 645 vs Mamiya 6
Date: 2016-03-30 19:46:43
From: Timo Puhakka
Makes me start to think again about making a 55mm Sputnik. I don't have a surplus TL-120 and I have gotten good at flocking and light sealing Spuds. Has anybody else done this yet? 
I figure you only really need two lenses, since you aren't going to focus or have through-the-lens metering, a "sport finder" would be enough. It would be fairly easy to link shutter levers. Take a meter reading, set your shutters to which ever of the two apertures you set ,and Bob's-your-uncle.
It would sure be lighter than the TL120, let alone two c220s.

Timo

On 29-Mar-16, at 4:47 PM, John Thurston juneau3d@thurstons.us [MF3D-group] wrote:

 

On 3/29/2016 12:06 PM, gfpguy1@gmail.com [MF3D-group] wrote:
> Sounds nice. Do you know where to get a modified lens board?

Errrmm. yeah, I do.

I had eight (if I recall correctly) made a few years ago. I
sold 'em at cost to list-members. Look in the archives early
in 2008 for more discussion. They are machined from
aluminum, and designed to handle Mamiya 55mm f/4.0 TLR
lenses. These are specifically the _TLR_ lenses from the
C220 and C330 and none other.

The TL120-55 is a fixed focus camera, suitable for use at
f/16 and f/22, for distances 3m to infinity. See discussions
in '08 for other distance options. It does _not_ work with
the TL120-1 metering system. It _does_ use the TL120-1
shutter. You _may_ choose to couple the apertures, but I
recommend using them un-linked.

My renderings from February, 2008 are still out there:
http://www.alaska.net/~thurston/images/backofboard.gif
http://www.alaska.net/~thurston/images/frontofboard.gif

My TL120-55 after fitting the lens board, but before fitting
any lenses:
http://www.alaska.net/~thurston/images/IMG_3689.JPG

Another builder's TL120-55 with a painted board.
http://www.alaska.net/~thurston/images/55mmDoneKK.JPG
(I think I recall whose camera this is, but will refrain
from offering credit for fear of getting it wrong. Feel free
to claim this beauty as yours.)
Mine looks a bit different because I chose to leave my lens
board in raw aluminum, and I stripped the shutter mechanisms
and levers from the lenses.

A few of the TL120-55 cameras have traded hands over the
years. If you asked here, someone may be done with theirs.

If you'd like to build your own, I have exactly one lens
board left. It is available for sale, $150+postage. I also
have a couple of lenses left, but if you want to build a
TL120-55, you should expect to also shop flea-bay for
another set. If you want to discuss a package price, contact
me off-list.

The TL120-55 is a nice choice if:
You have a donor TL120-1
Want wide-angle and normal stereo base
have some camera hacking skills

If you want a low-risk system, or hyper stereo spacing, get
a pair of cameras instead.
--
John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska


Subject: Spud 55 [was: Mamiya 645 vs Mamiya 6]
Date: 2016-03-30 19:56:22
From: John Thurston
On 3/30/2016 5:46 PM, Timo Puhakka tpuhakka@ymail.com
[MF3D-group] wrote:
> Makes me start to think again about making a 55mm Sputnik. I
> don't have a surplus TL-120 and I have gotten good at
> flocking and light sealing Spuds. Has anybody else done this
> yet?

I started working on it. As I recall, the problem I ran into
was the focus distance of the Mamiya lenses. I think it was
going to require taking front plate off the Spud and bringing
the lens board closer to the film plane.

Like I say, my memory is fuzzy. But it shouldn't bee too
difficult to re-establish since I have a mostly disassembled
Spud and a Mamiya 55mm f/4 lens. Open the back of my
TL120-55, open the shutter, measure the distance from the
film-plane to the rear element of the lens. Then see where
that distance puts the lens with respect to the front of the
Spud. I'll see if I can fit this in tonight.

> I figure you only really need two lenses, since you aren't
> going to focus or have through-the-lens metering, a "sport
> finder" would be enough. It would be fairly easy to link
> shutter levers. Take a meter reading, set your shutters to
> which ever of the two apertures you set ,and Bob's-your-uncle.
> It would sure be lighter than the TL120, let alone two c220s.

Yep, but you are relying on your two shutters to run in time.
That ain't necessarily trivial. The TL120-55 is heavy, but it
supplies the focal plan shutter so we can ignore the ancient
leaf shutters in the lenses.


--
John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska
Subject: Re: Spud 55
Date: 2016-03-30 20:09:04
From: John Thurston
On 3/30/2016 5:56 PM, John Thurston juneau3d@thurstons.us
[MF3D-group] wrote:
> On 3/30/2016 5:46 PM, Timo Puhakka tpuhakka@ymail.com
> [MF3D-group] wrote:
>> Makes me start to think again about making a 55mm Sputnik. I
>> don't have a surplus TL-120 and I have gotten good at
>> flocking and light sealing Spuds. Has anybody else done this
>> yet?
>
> I started working on it. As I recall, the problem I ran into
> was the focus distance of the Mamiya lenses. I think it was
> going to require taking front plate off the Spud and bringing
> the lens board closer to the film plane.

awrite. The rear element of the Mamiya 55mm f/4 lens sits
about 68mm from the film plane. The back of the Sputnik lens
board is about 63mm from its film plane. The bakelite is bout
4mm thick. Sooo, the rear element of the 55mm lens needs to
be position at the front surface of the camera. These
measurements are taken with a plastic caliper and read
without my glasses. They are probably +/- .5mm

So for a very quick and dirty solution, you could rip the
stock lenses off and epoxy a pair of of Mamiyas directly to
the front of your Spud :)

'zat help?

--
John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska
Subject: Re: Mamiya 645 vs Mamiya 6
Date: 2016-03-30 20:36:48
From: gfpguy1
Kevin
Painted or anodized?
Geoff
Subject: Re: Mamiya 645 vs Mamiya 6
Date: 2016-03-31 04:51:49
From: 3-d@sbcglobal.net
Attachments :
    This is the Spud/Mamiya conversion I did a while ago. Photo attached.

    80mm Mamiya C330 lenses grafted onto the Sputnik.
    Distance from the film plane to the lenses was the big issue I had, I machined off as much of the sputnik front plastic face as possible, down to about .020" thick I think.
    But I was squeezing in a bellows unit behind the lenses for adjustable focus so that made it harder.

    I used a Polaroid camera rangefinder to figure out the distance and then adjusted the lensboard to that distance (marked on the adjusting knob of the bellows).

    Lens matching was not an issue in real life viewing of the images.  I don't have the test values I got for lens matching but I only had two 80mm lenses and was going to use them regardless of match.
    I believe they were about .6% off from each other.
    That was not noticeable on the images.  The stereo images were fantastic.

    Alan

    Subject: Re: Spud 55
    Date: 2016-03-31 06:53:20
    From: Steven Lederman
    Alan Lewis successfully created a Spud-55.  Here is a link to the project:


    Subject: Re: Mamiya 645 vs Mamiya 6
    Date: 2016-03-31 14:07:40
    From: Kevin Keating
    Geoff,
    I spray painted flat black just on the outside of the lens board,inside still aluminum with foam cushion around lenses where it touches back plate that has the shutters. I also shoot with 2 Mamiya 7's bottom to bottom that has 4.25 inch's separation between lenses, but with that setup there is slight miniaturization of people/things that I don't get with the TL-120 which renders all images normal (life size). So I end up using both, the Mamiya's when shooting further away from the action and the TL-120-55 closer shots.
    Kevin



    On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 7:36 PM, "gfpguy1@gmail.com [MF3D-group]" wrote:


     
    Kevin
    Painted or anodized?
    Geoff


    Subject: Re: Mamiya 645 vs Mamiya 6
    Date: 2016-03-31 14:21:45
    From: gfpguy1
    How hard was it to match the Mamiya 7 lenses, what FL do you use? I was thinking of Mamiya 6s too.
    Subject: Re: Mamiya 645 vs Mamiya 6
    Date: 2016-03-31 15:59:52
    From: Kevin Keating
    For the Mamiya 7II rig, 3 sets of lenses, 43mm and 80mm were factory matched at Mamiya, the 65mm I use the most were not pre-matched, don't notice any issues with a mismatch on those when I view images. I do notice shutter synchronization problems though on some shots 10-15%,
    shutters are electronically synced, so you can't use auto exposure system like you could if you use twin cables, but I shoot at 1/500 a lot,so need the better electronic sync, so the 65mm lenses are pre-focused for F11 DOF, Sunny 16 and push 100 Speed 1 stop in development. The TL-120-55 lenses(were not pre matched) are taking and viewing lenses of a TLR camera which Mamiya matches up close with shims behind the lenses. If you not going to match lenses the TLR system I feel would be a better chance match than Mamiya 6 or 7 individual lenses.
    Kevin


    On Thursday, March 31, 2016 1:21 PM, "gfpguy1@gmail.com [MF3D-group]" wrote:


     
    How hard was it to match the Mamiya 7 lenses, what FL do you use? I was thinking of Mamiya 6s too.


    Subject: Re: Mamiya 645 vs Mamiya 6
    Date: 2016-03-31 16:20:11
    From: gfpguy1
    I take it that nowadays getting factory matched Mamiya 6 lenses is not possible?
    Subject: Re: Mamiya 645 vs Mamiya 6
    Date: 2016-03-31 18:10:53
    From: Kevin Keating
    Don't know if you can still get factory matched lenses for Mamiya 6 . For the TLR  camera's lenses I did try out a few sets of them(viewing and taking lenses from the same TLR camera twin board for left and right lenses on TL-120-55 board) a few sets didn't seem right, cause in the stereo mount I  aligned the bottom of the 3D slides matched up in the scene even along the bottom edge of the mount and then when looking at the top edge of the mount some things in the scene were not so even, but on one set it was and on the Mamiya 7II 65mm lenses it is to, so the magnification must be close so you could do the same with Mamiya 6 lenses.
    Kevin


    On Thursday, March 31, 2016 3:20 PM, "gfpguy1@gmail.com [MF3D-group]" wrote:


     
    I take it that nowadays getting factory matched Mamiya 6 lenses is not possible?